Okay veterans, spill your guts on AZOCs

MainiacJoe · Post by **MainiacJoe** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:22 pm

Well, I started a new 41 campaign this weekend. I have a couple AZOC questions involving Catlinas. I am hoping that this will tunr into another long thread where expereinced players share their wisdom about AZOCs, if Pasternakski is going to say that he has only gradually come to understand them then the rest of us could sure use all the help we can get!

Here are my questions involving Catalinas to prime the pump:

1. I transferred the Catalina out of Singapore to teh Andaman Islands. There was only one operational one left. It exerted what looked like a 2-hex AZOC. It was the only air unit on the Andamans, and I haven't garrisoned it yet. Is it because there is only 1 Catalina that the AZOC is so small (makes sense)?

2. Wake Island exerts no AZOC because it only has fighters. So I transfer in a dozen or so Catalinas from PH, and it still doesn't exert an AZOC! Is this because the Catalina isn't really a bomber? Then why does the Catalina at the Andamans exert an AZOC. Or does this refer to the "feature" mentioned in the Hints file where a fighter group cancels out the AZOC of longer ranged LBA at the same base. Will my Catalinas still spot enemy TFs and subs? I've checked, the enemy AZOCS barely do not overlap Wake this time.

3. A more general queston: What sort of planes exert AZOCs, and are some AZOCs "more effective" than others?

Thanks,

- Joe

Sardaukar · Post by **Sardaukar** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:53 pm

AZOC is bit problematic concept to me too

. One thing that comes to my mind is that enemy air (fighter) precence negates AZOC (depends on strengths, I think). Donno if that's the case with Wake I.

By the way, is the Cargo command useful for convoys to avoid enemy AZOC ? I seem to remember that in original version it was mostly useless, since convoy just aborted if it did hit AZOC instead of trying to circle around. Is that fixed or should I just use Transport and steer convoys more south to avoid annoying Japanese Bettys ?

Cheers,

M.S.

Capt. Harlock · Post by **Capt. Harlock** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 1:39 am

According to the manual, there are actually two types: fighter AZOCs and bomber AZOCs. I assume that bomber AZOCs are the ones displayed on the map. (Important note: fighter-bombers such as the P-40 can project BOTH bomber and fighter AZOCs.) It looks to me like the program determines how far a bomber AZOC can extend until meeting enemy fighters, and if that is less than the bomber's maximum range, it uses that radius as the AZOC radius 360 degrees around--even if there are no fighters in the opposite direction.

My guess is that it is therefore possible for two things to cancel a base's bomber AZOC: being out of supply so that search missions cannot be flown, or an "invisible" fighter AZOC. (The A6M2 Zero, with its long range, would be great at cancelling bomber AZOCs.)

A final point: the effective radius for anti-sub searches is half the radius for surface TFs. It's often smart to place your subs two hexes or more away from an enemy base, which will prevent most dive bombers from being effective.

Sardaukar · Post by **Sardaukar** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:48 pm

Does level bombers (B-25 etc) attack subs ? I have few extra air groups of them in Hawaii and I put them on NI in hopes that they'd patrol for subs. I don't recall them attacking any though.

Cheers,

M.S.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 6:31 pm

There are some B-25 groups that are USMC units. If you put them on day combat missions, they will search for subs. I usually put one or two of them in the Hawaiian Islands to help cover that area, especially against the AI. Depending on version, they will search for subs 2 or 3 hexs.

MainiacJoe · Post by **MainiacJoe** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:08 am

Hmm, lots of questions, not many answers. Sorry if I turned anyone off with the thread title. We really appreciate those who have gone before us and can share their hard-won wisdom with the rest of us. Or is it that we need to learn it the hard way ourselves?

Culiacan Mexico · Post by **Culiacan Mexico** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:29 pm

Originally posted by MainiacJoe
1. I transferred the Catalina out of Singapore to teh Andaman Islands. There was only one operational one left. It exerted what looked like a 2-hex AZOC. It was the only air unit on the Andamans, and I haven't garrisoned it yet. Is it because there is only 1 Catalina that the AZOC is so small (makes sense)?

2. Wake Island exerts no AZOC because it only has fighters. So I transfer in a dozen or so Catalinas from PH, and it still doesn't exert an AZOC! Is this because the Catalina isn't really a bomber? Then why does the Catalina at the Andamans exert an AZOC. Or does this refer to the "feature" mentioned in the Hints file where a fighter group cancels out the AZOC of longer ranged LBA at the same base. Will my Catalinas still spot enemy TFs and subs? I've checked, the enemy AZOCS barely do not overlap Wake this time.

My guess...Wake Island is isolated. When I play the Allies, at one time or another I will lose control of the air over Port Moresby, and when that happens my AZOC is affected as is sometimes the base isolation status. As for Andaman Island, I have experienced the same problem until I increase supply above 1,000 or expanded the base or added fighters, but I not sure which of those if any rectified the problem.

pasternakski · Post by **pasternakski** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 4:26 am

The best way to study the effects of AZOCs, after you have achieved some competent familiarity with the rest of the game, is to start a two-player game and experiment. Make note of the types of aircraft you have stationed at various bases for both sides, then examine the AZOC display to see how far the circles extend. Change the mix, and look again (remember that you can examine both your AZOCs and the enemy AZOCs from the map display for your side). Watch closely how the overlapping AZOCs alter for each side depending on the types of aircraft exerting them.

This is what you'll see and conclude (if you're as wacky as I am).

They give you a rough idea of which of your bases are isolated, but, of course, you can get an exact idea if you just look at the list of isolated bases ...

One of the primary causes of confusion is that there are two types, fighter AZOCs and bomber AZOCs, but the display only shows you one set of circles. You just don't know which of those circles represents a fighter AZOC and which a bomber AZOC (which is also created by a patrol group). Your analysis of the types of air units assigned to the bases gives you the answer, though.

The manual says that "AZOCs are created up to 7 hexes away from airfields, or 9 hexes away from carrier TFs that contain air groups of the proper type." Not very helpful by way of explanation, is it?

Fighter AZOCs can only have a radius as large as the range of the fighters exerting them (note that this is the longest range of all the fighters at the base in question - the shorter-ranged fighters seem to just "come along for the ride"). The side with more fighters (not necessarily the best fighters) will exert a fighter AZOC that "trumps" that of the weaker side to the extent that they overlap.

Bomber (including search) AZOCs are created the same way and have the same range limitation. The manual is incorrect when it says that land base bomber AZOCs are limited to seven hexes. A bomber AZOC extends as far as the range of the aircraft creating it (and, again, the longest range bomber or search plane at the base determines the radius of the AZOC).

The fighter AZOCs are not very important, according to the manual. All they are supposed to do is inhibit search. This is a gross misstatement. They also inhibit the radius of enemy bomber AZOCs. It is difficult to figure out what the practical consequence of this is, but one thing it does is limit the ability of land-based air to reaction search and strike approaching enemy TFs, particularly carrier TFs (although experience in playing shows that land bases regularly attack approaching enemy TFs as long as they are detected and come within range - it kind of makes you wonder if the whole AZOC thing has any effect at all in this circumstance).

Bomber AZOCs are important for the reasons stated in the manual: they permit reaction search by recon and bomber groups when an enemy TF enters the bomber AZOC, and permit reaction strikes under the conditions stated in the manual (six hexes for a land base and three hexes for a carrier TF). This all seems well and good, but it's not. It completely scr*ws the concept of "reaction range" assignments to carrier and surface combat TFs and muddies the whole idea of mission-type assignment at land bases.

For those of you who routinely put your best, most aggressive commanders in charge of carrier and surface combat TFs and make all the perfect preparations, including setting a reaction range sufficient to bring the TF into action against the enemy carriers, this point is at the heart of why nothing happens 99 percent of the time.

The maximum reaction range built into the AZOC system is three hexes (and I believe, from playing experience, that this bleeds over onto the surface combat TFs, as well). Setting anything more than that is useless (except in that once-in-a-blue-moon circumstance where the planets are all in proper alignment and Halsey is in charge, or our old friend Tenacious Tanaka is sufficiently motivated).

If you have your LBA assigned to naval attack, you're pretty much sure to get in your licks, notwithstanding AZOC considerations - as long as you have detected the enemy TFs. The best advice is to be sure to assign a squadron of patrol planes to each base that may be in a position to attack, or be attacked by, enemy TFs, particularly air combat TFs.

Your best bet in the final analysis? Forget the analysis. Play aggressively and get there "fustest with the mostest." The subtleties either just aren't there or are so maddeningly difficult to figure out that it detracts from your enjoyment of the game.

One last thing. The manual's mention of TFs cancelling AZOCs in their own hexes and so on is mostly rubbish. One thing that does apply, though, is the cancellation of reaction attacks by surface combat TFs on hexes they move through. This can be vital to the survival of amphibious assault TFs on their way to attack an enemy base. Send a bombardment TF through first (the way to do this is to ensure that its TF number is lower than the TF number of the transport TFs that are to follow it. If you don't make sure of this, the transports go in first and lose the benefit of the presence of the surface combat TF).

Above all, enjoy this great game and the work Jeremy and company have put, and are putting, into it. It ain't rocket science, guys, and it sometimes pretends to be more complex than it really is. My girlfriend is like that ...