Just bought TOAIII. A few n00b questions

[rustinpeace91]

After hearing some recommendations from others and viewing some AARs online. I bought TOAIII from the matrix store. I'm absolutely blown away by the amount of content that comes with this game. Hundreds of Scenerios, a full European Theater scenerio from 1939 to 1949 (which in itself is a full game), alternate history. I can see myself never growing tired of this game! It's quite a big leap from Unity of Command, which is the main War-game I play, so I'm going to need to learn this one. Right now I've been kind of messing around with it and playing the Aarcourt At least doing stuff like moving and attacking is fairly easy. I just have two main questions right now.

1 Is there a way to look at the battle results after the combat is resolved, other than the immediate screens that show up. The reason I bring this up is that the combat reports talk about units and hex spaces, yet wont let you scroll through the map while the screen is up, meaning sometimes it can be talking about units and locations that I don't remember attacking (which is particularly a problem if it's a big battle) and therefore it's hard for me to get a picture of how the individual battle effects the bigger picture.

2 is there a difference between making all your attacks and resolving them in one motion and doing them one by one. I've looked through the manual and honestly still don't fully understand how the overall "percentage of your turn" thing works.

3 Are the losses referring to equipment or people? I really can't tell. It says equipment on the menu, but then how are human losses calculated?

[Oberst_Klink]

There's a thread ongoing that might answer all your questions, including tutorial slides
and Steve's outstanding TOAW III YouTube tutorials!

tm.asp?m=3736338

Klink, Oberst

[Zovs]

rustinpeace91,

Welcome to the club. I'll never forgot the day way back in the nineties, back then Windows 95 was new and all the games were either DOS based (Steel Panthers) or built for Macs or Omegis or Commodores, and I vividly remember seeing TOAW (the first version from Talonsoft) on the shelf at a computer software store (remember those? lol, kind of like a record, geez showing my age, some of you probably don't' know what a record (vinyl) is, lol, hum, well they used to sell records (DVD nowadays, or cloud) anyway, I just realized unless your over 40ish, you'll never get this concept...lol)...so anyway I picked it up, and have been TOAW, COW, etc. ever since.

There are tons of scenarios, everything from company to armies.

I think just about everyone has tried to create a scenario. I made some board game conversions, I gave them to Herr Klink, one you might like I converted the old board game from SPI caled War in Europe to COW. Its fairly decent.

TOAW is complex, rich, rewarding and for the most part been kept up to date, and still has a lot of awesome quality scenarios being designed for it and there are a group of fellows that made some GUI enhancements, just ask around all the fellows are really great too...

[SMK-at-work]

ORIGINAL: rustinpeace91
1 Is there a way to look at the battle results after the combat is resolved, other than the immediate screens that show up. The reason I bring this up is that the combat reports talk about units and hex spaces, yet wont let you scroll through the map while the screen is up, meaning sometimes it can be talking about units and locations that I don't remember attacking (which is particularly a problem if it's a big battle) and therefore it's hard for me to get a picture of how the individual battle effects the bigger picture.

it would be nice, but alas the answer is no....moer or less! You can set up the game to create a log file for the combat results each turn that you can then look at, and I think there's a reader program for it somewhere, but I don't use it so perhaps search the forum for details.

2 is there a difference between making all your attacks and resolving them in one motion and doing them one by one. I've looked through the manual and honestly still don't fully understand how the overall "percentage of your turn" thing works.

alas no - again 'twould be nice

3 Are the losses referring to equipment or people? I really can't tell. It says equipment on the menu, but then how are human losses calculated?

Equipment is per item (ie 1 tank, one gun, 1 aircraft), "people equipment" is in squads of indeterminate size - so rifle squads, heavy rifle squads, engineering squads, etc. I usually think of them as 10 people each as a basic guide.

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: rustinpeace91

1 Is there a way to look at the battle results after the combat is resolved, other than the immediate screens that show up. The reason I bring this up is that the combat reports talk about units and hex spaces, yet wont let you scroll through the map while the screen is up, meaning sometimes it can be talking about units and locations that I don't remember attacking (which is particularly a problem if it's a big battle) and therefore it's hard for me to get a picture of how the individual battle effects the bigger picture.

The map will automatically move to the battle's location. There should be no need to scroll the map. The combat report obscures the map but if you press and hold down the space key, the combat report screen will disappear so that you can see the location of the battle. There is a visual indication of where the battle occurred.

2 is there a difference between making all your attacks and resolving them in one motion and doing them one by one. I've looked through the manual and honestly still don't fully understand how the overall "percentage of your turn" thing works.

Yes, a huge difference. If you resolve each battle one by one you will burn through your turn. (Something usually referred to as "turn burn".) The TOAW turn and combat round system takes a little getting used to.

Each turn is divided into ten combat rounds. Think of the combat rounds as time progressing through the turn. If you have two battles and you want to execute them at the same time then you must order the attacks on both before resolving them.

If you resolve each of them individually, then the second battle will not begin until the first battle is completed. If you are on weekly turns, for example, it means that the second battle will not begin until later that week. Any subsequent battles are later still and thereby burning your turn as you run out of time.

As I said, it does take a little getting used to. The goal is to achieve as many combat rounds in a turn as possible. You will never ever get a turn that gives you exactly ten combat rounds. Some battles are more "sticky" than others meaning that if you plan a two day battle, it could last for three days or longer. The pesky enemy is tougher to shift than you thought.

The battle planner gives you your green slime's best estimate of what to expect but it is only his best guess and he is frequent wrong.

More experience will give you a better feeling for which battles can be tricky.

3 Are the losses referring to equipment or people? I really can't tell. It says equipment on the menu, but then how are human losses calculated?

As already said, human "equipment" represents 10 men. Crew served weapons assume the weapon has its normal crew and the human component of it is not recorded.

Enjoy.

Best wishes,
Steve

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: rustinpeace91



2 is there a difference between making all your attacks and resolving them in one motion and doing them one by one. I've looked through the manual and honestly still don't fully understand how the overall "percentage of your turn" thing works.

The 'percentage thing' is how TOAW handles the concept of time and distance. That sounds like science fiction but it is an ever present problem for turn based games. How do you simulate time passed and distance moved with units that cannot move at the same time. This is not a real time game since every unit is moved separately.

Movement allowances represent the time it takes for a unit to move a certain distance or space. How do you simulate actions taken by unit A and then resolve the time taken by the actions of unit A with other units?

For an example of a game that ignores time and distance considerations look at Gary Grigsby's War in the East. One turn is one week. You can move unit A, conduct combat and in that combat kick an enemy unit out of a hex, consuming unit A's entire movement allowance. For Unit A one week has just passed. Then unit B can move through the hex that unit A just conducted a combat in because the enemy unit is gone from that hex. That causes a conflict with time and distance. In real terms unit A and unit B are existing in the same time frame. Unit A consumes that entire time frame moving and then conducting combat. Unit B cannot possibly move through the same hex the enemy unit was just in because in real terms it is still there. How can unit B pass through a hex where combat is currently taking place? In GG WitE reality falls apart. Little or no effort is made to resolve it.

TOAW attempts to resolve time and distance by consuming movement points of all units on the map at the same time. Unit A moves and conducts a combat. That movement and combat takes a set amount of time. That time is deducted from the movement allowance of every unit on the map. So if the movement and combat of unit A takes it's entire movement allowance then one week has passed for unit A. And one week has also passed for every unit on the map. If unit A consumes just 50% of it's movement at the end of the combat then every other unit on the map still has 50% of their movement left.

If unit A and unit B attack the same hex in the same turn and unit A has consumed more movement points to get to the hex where combat is taking place then after the combat the percentage of movement left for all units on the map will be the same percentage unit A has left because it used more time to get to the combat. In real world terms unit B got to the combat on Tuesday but unit A didn't get there until Wednesday. Since unit A took part in the combat, the combat obvisoulsy didn't even get started until Wednesday. If the combat ended Thursday then it's Thursday for every unit on the map.

If you did it like GG WitE it wouldn't be Thursday for every unit on the map. It would be Thursday for units A and B. It would be Monday for every other unit because the time it took units A and B to conduct thier combat is not resolved for anyone but A and B. Then you could move unit C through the hex where unit A and B just finished their combat even though for unit C it is Wednesday in that hex. So even though it's Wednesday and an enemy unit is there on Wednesday (that unit A and B are fighting) unit C just skates though the hex as though nothing was there. Time becomes an abstract that loses all meaning for unit C. Impossiblities become the norm. The simulation falls apart and becomes an arcade game.

If TOAW tells you you have used 20% of your turn it means every unit on the map has consumed 20% of the turn or better, 20% of their movement allowance. It's the same day or the same time of day for everyone on the map.

[rustinpeace91]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

ORIGINAL: rustinpeace91

1 Is there a way to look at the battle results after the combat is resolved, other than the immediate screens that show up. The reason I bring this up is that the combat reports talk about units and hex spaces, yet wont let you scroll through the map while the screen is up, meaning sometimes it can be talking about units and locations that I don't remember attacking (which is particularly a problem if it's a big battle) and therefore it's hard for me to get a picture of how the individual battle effects the bigger picture.

The map will automatically move to the battle's location. There should be no need to scroll the map. The combat report obscures the map but if you press and hold down the space key, the combat report screen will disappear so that you can see the location of the battle. There is a visual indication of where the battle occurred.

2 is there a difference between making all your attacks and resolving them in one motion and doing them one by one. I've looked through the manual and honestly still don't fully understand how the overall "percentage of your turn" thing works.

Yes, a huge difference. If you resolve each battle one by one you will burn through your turn. (Something usually referred to as "turn burn".) The TOAW turn and combat round system takes a little getting used to.

Each turn is divided into ten combat rounds. Think of the combat rounds as time progressing through the turn. If you have two battles and you want to execute them at the same time then you must order the attacks on both before resolving them.

If you resolve each of them individually, then the second battle will not begin until the first battle is completed. If you are on weekly turns, for example, it means that the second battle will not begin until later that week. Any subsequent battles are later still and thereby burning your turn as you run out of time.

As I said, it does take a little getting used to. The goal is to achieve as many combat rounds in a turn as possible. You will never ever get a turn that gives you exactly ten combat rounds. Some battles are more "sticky" than others meaning that if you plan a two day battle, it could last for three days or longer. The pesky enemy is tougher to shift than you thought.

The battle planner gives you your green slime's best estimate of what to expect but it is only his best guess and he is frequent wrong.

More experience will give you a better feeling for which battles can be tricky.

3 Are the losses referring to equipment or people? I really can't tell. It says equipment on the menu, but then how are human losses calculated?

As already said, human "equipment" represents 10 men. Crew served weapons assume the weapon has its normal crew and the human component of it is not recorded.

Enjoy.

Best wishes,
Steve

Thanks. This clears up pretty much everything

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

There's a thread ongoing that might answer all your questions, including tutorial slides
and Steve's outstanding TOAW III YouTube tutorials!



Klink, Oberst

Could you point me to those youtube tutorials? a search only showed a few AARs from various people. Thanks.

[shunwick]

This first one is about stuff before you start playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAmteAoI6gs

This one is about the units:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn-3zG-Pf6Y

I plan to do some more on: Combat, Loss Settings & Turn Phases, PO vs Human, Formations & Support, and the Editor.

Again, its not scripted and certainly not professional, but maybe it will help beginners out a little.

The quote is from Steve (sPzAbt653).

Not sure when the third video will be available but these two are a good start to the series. He only has the two video available at the moment since he has only just started this series but more are planned and it is well worth subscribing to his channel in order not to miss any.

Best wishes,
Steve

[congooo]

WOW what a answer Lobster
that is the best answer i have ever heard.i never knew it was like that.
o by the way if you dont know how much movement you have left you can .Have that displayed at the bottom of counter if you want.that is useful if you have big movement planed and you turn laptop of and come back and you dont know what you moved.it happened to me .
but i had never thought about that Lobster.
all though i feel movement is best to reducs could one consider reducing proficiency instead of movement.i think it could work.

[rustinpeace91]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: rustinpeace91



2 is there a difference between making all your attacks and resolving them in one motion and doing them one by one. I've looked through the manual and honestly still don't fully understand how the overall "percentage of your turn" thing works.

The 'percentage thing' is how TOAW handles the concept of time and distance. That sounds like science fiction but it is an ever present problem for turn based games. How do you simulate time passed and distance moved with units that cannot move at the same time. This is not a real time game since every unit is moved separately.

Movement allowances represent the time it takes for a unit to move a certain distance or space. How do you simulate actions taken by unit A and then resolve the time taken by the actions of unit A with other units?

For an example of a game that ignores time and distance considerations look at Gary Grigsby's War in the East. One turn is one week. You can move unit A, conduct combat and in that combat kick an enemy unit out of a hex, consuming unit A's entire movement allowance. For Unit A one week has just passed. Then unit B can move through the hex that unit A just conducted a combat in because the enemy unit is gone from that hex. That causes a conflict with time and distance. In real terms unit A and unit B are existing in the same time frame. Unit A consumes that entire time frame moving and then conducting combat. Unit B cannot possibly move through the same hex the enemy unit was just in because in real terms it is still there. How can unit B pass through a hex where combat is currently taking place? In GG WitE reality falls apart. Little or no effort is made to resolve it.

TOAW attempts to resolve time and distance by consuming movement points of all units on the map at the same time. Unit A moves and conducts a combat. That movement and combat takes a set amount of time. That time is deducted from the movement allowance of every unit on the map. So if the movement and combat of unit A takes it's entire movement allowance then one week has passed for unit A. And one week has also passed for every unit on the map. If unit A consumes just 50% of it's movement at the end of the combat then every other unit on the map still has 50% of their movement left.

If unit A and unit B attack the same hex in the same turn and unit A has consumed more movement points to get to the hex where combat is taking place then after the combat the percentage of movement left for all units on the map will be the same percentage unit A has left because it used more time to get to the combat. In real world terms unit B got to the combat on Tuesday but unit A didn't get there until Wednesday. Since unit A took part in the combat, the combat obvisoulsy didn't even get started until Wednesday. If the combat ended Thursday then it's Thursday for every unit on the map.

If you did it like GG WitE it wouldn't be Thursday for every unit on the map. It would be Thursday for units A and B. It would be Monday for every other unit because the time it took units A and B to conduct thier combat is not resolved for anyone but A and B. Then you could move unit C through the hex where unit A and B just finished their combat even though for unit C it is Wednesday in that hex. So even though it's Wednesday and an enemy unit is there on Wednesday (that unit A and B are fighting) unit C just skates though the hex as though nothing was there. Time becomes an abstract that loses all meaning for unit C. Impossiblities become the norm. The simulation falls apart and becomes an arcade game.

If TOAW tells you you have used 20% of your turn it means every unit on the map has consumed 20% of the turn or better, 20% of their movement allowance. It's the same day or the same time of day for everyone on the map.

Wow. I've literally never considered this in turn based games, but that makes a lot of sense. I'm really glad I bought this game. That's really cool.

I played Aarcourt again and achieved victory. Doing the Cuba 1962 Scenario right now

[shunwick]

And just make what Lobster said perfectly clear...

Assigning "late arriving units" to a battle will delay the start of the battle and is another cause of "turn burn".

Best wishes,
Steve

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

For an example of a game that ignores time and distance considerations look at Gary Grigsby's War in the East. One turn is one week. You can move unit A, conduct combat and in that combat kick an enemy unit out of a hex, consuming unit A's entire movement allowance. For Unit A one week has just passed. Then unit B can move through the hex that unit A just conducted a combat in because the enemy unit is gone from that hex. That causes a conflict with time and distance. In real terms unit A and unit B are existing in the same time frame. Unit A consumes that entire time frame moving and then conducting combat. Unit B cannot possibly move through the same hex the enemy unit was just in because in real terms it is still there. How can unit B pass through a hex where combat is currently taking place? In GG WitE reality falls apart. Little or no effort is made to resolve it.

TOAW attempts to resolve time and distance by consuming movement points of all units on the map at the same time. Unit A moves and conducts a combat. That movement and combat takes a set amount of time. That time is deducted from the movement allowance of every unit on the map. So if the movement and combat of unit A takes it's entire movement allowance then one week has passed for unit A. And one week has also passed for every unit on the map. If unit A consumes just 50% of it's movement at the end of the combat then every other unit on the map still has 50% of their movement left.

Note that TOAW only fixes the problem where combat is required. If the defender RBCs then it has the same unreality as WitE. [:(]

[Lobster]

Yes, it is possible to move a unit to force a Retreat Before Combat and then use a closer unit to enter the hex just vacated. It's also possible to use a unit to expend all of it's movement points to 'surround' another unit and then use a unit that has used no movement points to attack and eliminate the defending unit because the defending unit has no vacant hex to retreat into. However, I don't consider this as bad as WitE where everything is thrown out. And with two 'house rules' you could fix the two previously mentioned breaks with reality.

Bottom line, no turn based game using IGO/UGO is going to be completely realistic. It's just not possible unless you break the game down into nanosecond turns. However, Norm's solution is one of the better ones. Far and away better than WitE. Considerably less expensive also although there are some aspects of WitE I would like to see in TOAW. But this isn't about which game is better, I was just using WitE to point out how the percentage left is determined. WitE was just handy for showing what would happen if you didn't bother with that part of TOAW. I could have use John Tillers games with Manual Defensive Fire turned off but not as many people in this forum are familiar with his games I think.

[rustinpeace91]

OK i have another question. How do I actually change group/formation composition? Let's say I have two units in different groups I want in the same group. How do I make that happen. I looked through the manual. I know how to open up the Order of Battle and "group composition" tab but I don't know how to actually change anything. Can I not change that?

Also is there any way to make it so that hitting the mouse wheel doesn't zoom in and out. it always lags my game when I do that. I hate accidentally hitting it and having to wait just to zoom back in.

Finally I just installed the new update (I first thought the version i DL'd was the most up to date but it turns out not) I really like what's been added. The right click to attack by default makes playing a lot faster for sure. The game just feels a lot less dated. One thing I can't quite get right is the tool tips. I want them to pop up 3 seconds after my mouse has been idle so it's not a bunch of tool tips fluttering around as I move my mouse, but I want them to hang around for a while so I can read them carefully. For some reason when I change the "tool tip delay" nothing happens. They hang around for about 3-5 seconds no matter what setting it is on.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: rustinpeace91

OK i have another question. How do I actually change group/formation composition? Let's say I have two units in different groups I want in the same group. How do I make that happen. I looked through the manual. I know how to open up the Order of Battle and "group composition" tab but I don't know how to actually change anything. Can I not change that?

Formation assignments can't be changed.

Edit: I assumed you meant in the game. They can be changed in the editor, of course.

Also is there any way to make it so that hitting the mouse wheel doesn't zoom in and out. it always lags my game when I do that. I hate accidentally hitting it and having to wait just to zoom back in.

I don't think so, although I thought that might have been addressed, but, if so, I can't remember where or even if it was in a released version.

Finally I just installed the new update (I first thought the version i DL'd was the most up to date but it turns out not) I really like what's been added. The right click to attack by default makes playing a lot faster for sure. The game just feels a lot less dated. One thing I can't quite get right is the tool tips. I want them to pop up 3 seconds after my mouse has been idle so it's not a bunch of tool tips fluttering around as I move my mouse, but I want them to hang around for a while so I can read them carefully. For some reason when I change the "tool tip delay" nothing happens. They hang around for about 3-5 seconds no matter what setting it is on.

"Tool Tip Delay" sets how long the mouse must remain stationary to get the Tool Tip to pop up. "Tool Tip Hide" sets how long it stays popped up once triggered.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: rustinpeace91

Also is there any way to make it so that hitting the mouse wheel doesn't zoom in and out. it always lags my game when I do that. I hate accidentally hitting it and having to wait just to zoom back in.

I don't think so, although I thought that might have been addressed, but, if so, I can't remember where or even if it was in a released version.

Ok, there is a parameter in the Opart 3.ini file called: "allowMouseWheelZoom=Y".

Problem is, I don't know if it was added in the 3.4 or 3.5 update (3.5 hasn't been released yet).

Edit: I now see that it was a 3.4 addition (see What's New update 3.4, section IX, item 1), so try setting it to "allowMouseWheelZoom=N". (You have to edit the file in a text editor).

[congooo]

rustinpeace91
you might not find the tooltips box,s difficult to read but if you do there,s graphic mods that are so easy to put in to make it clearer (for instance you can just change that tooltip graphic box and nothing else ).you can do this to all the graphics pick and choose .so if you dont like terrain change it.i find the units to be fine and terrain .SO far, roads might become a bit annoying i dont know yet.

[tombo]

...very interesting concept.

For turn-based IGOUGO, I would think games with separate move/combat phases also addresses this time space issue correctly.

[rustinpeace91]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: rustinpeace91

OK i have another question. How do I actually change group/formation composition? Let's say I have two units in different groups I want in the same group. How do I make that happen. I looked through the manual. I know how to open up the Order of Battle and "group composition" tab but I don't know how to actually change anything. Can I not change that?

Formation assignments can't be changed.

Edit: I assumed you meant in the game. They can be changed in the editor, of course.

Also is there any way to make it so that hitting the mouse wheel doesn't zoom in and out. it always lags my game when I do that. I hate accidentally hitting it and having to wait just to zoom back in.

I don't think so, although I thought that might have been addressed, but, if so, I can't remember where or even if it was in a released version.

Finally I just installed the new update (I first thought the version i DL'd was the most up to date but it turns out not) I really like what's been added. The right click to attack by default makes playing a lot faster for sure. The game just feels a lot less dated. One thing I can't quite get right is the tool tips. I want them to pop up 3 seconds after my mouse has been idle so it's not a bunch of tool tips fluttering around as I move my mouse, but I want them to hang around for a while so I can read them carefully. For some reason when I change the "tool tip delay" nothing happens. They hang around for about 3-5 seconds no matter what setting it is on.

"Tool Tip Delay" sets how long the mouse must remain stationary to get the Tool Tip to pop up. "Tool Tip Hide" sets how long it stays popped up once triggered.

So if you can't change unit formations, in this strategy guide at the end he talks about forming the US units into a corp

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/docs/s ... -guide.php

It's at the very end (bottom of the page) when talking about the Korean scenerio. How would I do this?

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: rustinpeace91

So if you can't change unit formations, in this strategy guide at the end he talks about forming the US units into a corp

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/docs/s ... -guide.php

It's at the very end (bottom of the page) when talking about the Korean scenerio. How would I do this?

I assume he means that they would just be grouped together on the map, and work as a team in assaults. Note that units don't necessarily have to be in the same formation in order to have full cooperation.

Regardless, formation assignments can't be changed during the game.