Automatic Counterbattery

[IronMikeGolf]

So, I am playing my AGMB attack scenario to see how it shakes out under 2.0.6. When the CRP got eyes on the objective, one of the defending mech platoons made them. After an exchange of fire, the CRP was dead and the 122mm battery that is part of the FSE fired a mission at the defending mech plt.

No Soviet units were exposed, and so, none were spotted. The defenders have a 155mm battery in support and it was in On Call status. The FSCC generated a counterbattery mission. Heh.

BDA: 2 x 122mm guns fallen out and 2 x Meatballs fallen out

[CapnDarwin]

Nice how that works. Especially when it is your guys doing the CB work. [:D]

[IronMikeGolf]

Had a bit of an arty duel. Pretty bloody. Half a bty here, half a bty there...

Looks like if there's no line units, the arty and mortars will go after the other guy's indirect pretty quick. Like 33-50% likelyhood of getting a mission. Had mortars on mortars for a bit.

In 2.0.6, Mech Co vs Advance Guard is a pretty even fight.

[istari6]

Wow. The new artillery is +devastating+. Playing the first mission of the US Hell on Wheels campaign, and in a single 3 minute span I had 7 of 8 M109A6 Paladins knocked out by CB fire. Two HE strikes by Soviet CB did the job. In the first strike, HE knocks out 3 of 4. 2 minutes later, a HE strike on the other platoon knocks out 4 of 4. 5 minutes later in the same turn, Soviet artillery hits a Bradley platoon in the middle of a bound cross country (Hasty Move) and knocks out 3 of 4 with a single strike. More artillery that same round attrits a spread-out Bradley company from full-strength to 50%.

Not quite sure how to handle this yet. I read Mad Russian's advice about not interrupting Move orders after a shoot, but my Paladins didn't even have time to generate the orders. They fired their FASCAM and were hit by CB almost immediately. WIth the new lethality, does it make sense for NATO to focus all artillery on CB missions from the start of the scenario? How are others handling artillery under 2.06?

[Mad Russian]

What turn was that?

Good Hunting.

MR

[istari6]

It was last turn, and I'm now at 1:50 into the battle. So assuming ~22-30 min per command cycle probably turn 4 or 5? After just 1 bombardment of HE, C 4th Bn/3rd FA lost all 4. 1 HE strike hit B 4th Bn/3rd FA and it lost 3. After one more strike, 3/A/3rd Bn/41st Inf Regiment is down to 1 M2A1 Bradley and 1 Mechanized Rifle. This was a formerly full-strength platoon caught in the open moving at speed. It was C company 3rd Bn/41st Infantry that was heavily attrited by artillery strikes with heavy losses. All of this happened during the last turn.

I know the law of averages will bite everyone occasionally, so one can't read too much into a single turn. But artillery does seem significantly more lethal in 2.06, particularly to AFV, and it might require rebalancing some of the artillery available to each side.

[IronMikeGolf]

istari, did your firing unit have more than one target hex to fire at? Keep in mind that if you order multiple targets, the battery will fire all of them, then do a move.

[istari6]

IMG - good thought. I don't recall if I had given multiple fire orders. Will keep an eye out for the future.

MR - I'm playing further with the same scenario tonight (Hell on Wheels 1), and it's a consistent pattern. Soviet artillery seems extraordinarily effective against AFV. Every Soviet strike gets multiple kills per fire mission, usually 2-3 Bradleys. In turn, I just launched two full M110A2 ICM salvos on a hex packed with BMP-2s and soviet infantry, and only received 2 kills. Could there be something off about the effectiveness of the particular Soviet artillery units used in this scenario or the defensive values of US AFV vs indirect fire after 2.06?

If I'm the only one seeing this pattern, then no worries. But if others are also seeing this pattern after 2.06, hopefully this gives some pointers on where to look.

[wodin]

istari I agree with you..AI arty seems alittle to quick to counter battery and is extremely punishing. Though I'm not knowledgeable enough about modern warfare to say whether this is accurate portrayal or no.

[CapnDarwin]

I'll take a pass over the CB code during the long weekend here just to be sure nothing is off the rails. We did not see an issue in testing, but we also don't see every odd combination of events either.

[Tazak]

I personally think we have been let of lightly with CB in the past but we now have to take the view that it is as important as the ground battle.

If you check the user data sheets the CB % has risen to 40% for NATO and 30% for soviet (compared to 6% & 4% or something around that previously), so yes CB is far more frequent now.

I haven't looked into CB radar assets for US/WG but the British normally have 1 CB company (or battery to use the correct term) per arty regiment (battalion in US/WG/WP terms), and yes while this was normally the mortar locating radar there is some evidence that it could track normal arty shells but for arguments sake lets assume it can track normal arty shells, add in the other CB assets such as early drone systems and its not hard to see shoot'n'scoot being key to survival.

When you view the soviet stance on arty ('arty is the god of war' phrase comes to mind) they would have more than enough to allocate to CB duty, couple this with NATO would need a fairly high % of their arty assets on CB duty to counter the 10000's barrels the soviets would employ, its not hard to see the arty battle is a critical factor in an all-arms battle.

The question I would be asking is: how frequently would batteries be assigned to CB fire if they were not flagged as dedicated CB assets. In game terms should CB fire be removed as a effect of arty units being set to on-call - would this affect the AI, does the AI set some arty units to CB or does it just use the CB fire as an effect of on-call.

If arty units had to be set to CB rather than just using on-call, this might appear to slow down the CB fire rate that people are seeing, scenario designers would need to set some of the AI arty assets to CB during the setup otherwise the perception would be a major drop in CB rates.