limited orders undo ?

[davidoux]

Is there a way to undo an order when playing with limited orders ?

[CapnDarwin]

Quick answer is no. You can issue a new order to the unit, but it costs one order point.

[davidoux]

Is that intended and meant to put a lot more pressure or do you plan to implement that in a future patch ?

it's rather unforgiving for new player ...

[MikeGER]

davidoux,
fluff-wise imagine: You are sitting in your command vehicle and yelling to your staff to get an order written and then typed(or phoned) into the encrypted radio net plaqued by ECM
...your staff gets busy ...a few minutes later you change your mind and you reformulate your order ...the time had already passed, you can surly change the order, but the time of your simulated command cycle had moved on. Just like in real life

so its intended[:)]

Proposal:
OTS, how about showing in unlimited-order-play also the limited number 'ghosted' with a infotext, just for information / hint
so a new player can - if he likes - try to approach this number from above in his unlimited-order-play with more and more selfrestraint.
And when he feels fit to the task he may start his next secession of this scenario with limited order in place

[davidoux]

since it is relatively easy to get around by using save/load, I don't think this is an intended feature
(at least versus AI); I would be curious to know what was the dev intent here

IMHO There should be an option to select whether undo is allowed or not and this should be enforced with ironman
in order to be relevant.

Or an easier implementation (I understand undo mechanisms are more complex) : reset button to the start of the turn
(equivalent to a quick load without having to quit .....)

[Alex1812]

the wrong order is a typical command & control problem. The real commander does not have undo button, so the current implementation in the game looks OK for me

[Mad Russian]

Welcome to the game David. Glad to have you commenting.

Limited orders is my favorite way to play the game. It's also by far the most unforgiving and IMO should only be played after you have some experience with the game engine.

ORIGINAL: davidoux

since it is relatively easy to get around by using save/load, I don't think this is an intended feature
(at least versus AI); I would be curious to know what was the dev intent here

It absolutely is the intended feature. If anyone wants to play the game saving and then going back to replay the turns they can. Anyone can do that with any game. That's also a feature.

Limited orders are intended to be limited as much as possible, where ever possible. To put as much pressure on the gamer as possible without actually having you have to duck bullets and shrapnel while sitting at your computer monitor.

IMHO There should be an option to select whether undo is allowed or not and this should be enforced with ironman
in order to be relevant.

Or an easier implementation (I understand undo mechanisms are more complex) : reset button to the start of the turn
(equivalent to a quick load without having to quit .....)

The option that does all of this is to select to play without limiting the orders. If you play the game with limited orders they are going to be limited. There is no undo, rewind or reverse in actual combat situations and the limited orders option is to try to put as much of the actual pressure on you the gamer as they feel in actual combat. There are going to be some changes to limited orders in the future but undo/redo/rewind are probably not going to be in that list.

Good Hunting.

MR

[DoubleDeuce]

Limited Orders definitely adds stress to the equation. Nothing adds to your terror as a commander than finding you have run out of orders when you just need to move one last unit to plug a gap in your lines. At first I didn't like it but then as I learned the game, I wouldn't play it any other way.

[Tim James]

I'm in danger of wearing a hole in my head from scratching it so much...

IMHO There should be an option to select whether undo is allowed or not and this should be enforced with ironman
in order to be relevant.

Or an easier implementation (I understand undo mechanisms are more complex) : reset button to the start of the turn
(equivalent to a quick load without having to quit .....)

The option that does all of this is to select to play without limiting the orders.

That option also has the undesired consequence of allowing unlimited orders.

Every turn-based game in the history of civilization (note: may be hyperbole) takes the same approach as chess: as long as I don't take my hand off that piece, I can move it back and reconsider. I play turn-based games to puzzle over each decision, tweak everything until it's just right, then turn it all loose. If I wanted arbitrary pressure, I'd play a real-time game.

Anyway, I'll get over it now that I understand this arbitrary limit to the otherwise-promising limited orders rule. I'd suggest explaining it in the tutorial, but maybe that's a bad idea. I could see people immediately asking for their money back...

(Notice how I edited my post after submitting it? [8D])

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Tim James

Every turn-based game in the history of civilization (note: may be hyperbole) takes the same approach as chess: as long as I don't take my hand off that piece, I can move it back and reconsider. I play turn-based games to puzzle over each decision, tweak everything until it's just right, then turn it all loose. If I wanted arbitrary pressure, I'd play a real-time game.

That's why I play turn based games.

But if I want the 'don't take my finger off the piece rule' I play without limited orders. Because the very essence of limited orders is to give you the stress factor of having to give a set of orders under duress. As actual commanders have to do. When an actual commander gives an order he doesn't have the luxury of getting a redo, undo or do over. Once he gives it that order is gone. To undo that he has to give another order. That's the same way FPC works.

Anyway, I'll get over it now that I understand this arbitrary limit to the otherwise-promising limited orders rule. I'd suggest explaining it in the tutorial, but maybe that's a bad idea. I could see people immediately asking for their money back...

(Notice how I edited my post after submitting it? [8D])

We refund customers money if they don't think the product was worth it. If you feel that strongly about the limited orders being broken I would suggest you play with the unlimited orders option. That option is designed for you to take all the time you like to give and correct the orders you give. Also, as has been mentioned, if you mess up the orders too much you can restart a saved turn.(And I save EVERY turn and I recommend all of you do as well.)

This all sounds very defensive, it's not intended to be, for many, including me, this is the preferred way to play the game.[&o] Limited Orders have been tweaked multiple times to get it where it is today. Not saying it may not be tweaked again, but at the moment it's playing as intended.


Good Hunting.

MR

[Tim James]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Because the very essence of limited orders is to give you the stress factor of having to give a set of orders under duress.

It's not my game, so I can only tell you how I interpret the essence of that option: simulating the limited amount of time and attention a commander has to micromanage, but allowing the conceit of a magical instant in time where those limited decisions can be made and tweaked before pressing the "play" button once again on reality.

You keep saying that if you don't want the full limited orders effect, you simply play without it. But that's cheating. I don't want that. Instead there's a third option that some of us are looking for: a limited number of orders each phase to prevent us from micromanaging, but with the mechanical convenience of getting everything right before clicking "go".

As you point out, this option already exists by reloading the game. However, there is no option to autosave at the beginning of the orders phase so I'd have to do it manually, assuming I remember. Therefore, the only limit is my patience and tolerance for inconvenience. That's not an "interesting challenge" in the sense of game design.

[davidoux]

The option that does all of this is to select to play without limiting the orders

That would be the case if the max number of orders this turn would be displayed but it is not the case;
There is also no way to know the timings before validating my waypoints.

Limited Orders definitely adds stress to the equation.

I like limited order, and what I would like to have is a proper way to practise this mode, without stress and without being screwed by my lack of interface knowledge; For that I need to know the max number allowed per turn. Playing with and without this options are two very different games.

Proposal:
OTS, how about showing in unlimited-order-play also the limited number 'ghosted' with a infotext,

+1, an other easy implementation would be to add a "clear order button" associated to the units.

the wrong order is a typical command & control problem

The approach taken in this game to "simulate" this feature is "okay you pushed the wrong button on the interface, then you screwed like you did in your command vehicle, get around that".
I am okay with that but it does not allow you to fully analysis the game to take the most optimal decision, like you would do for instance in a practise chess game (you would try different combination on the board before taking your final decision knowing that you have one "order" per turn [:)] )

<TL;DR>
Current implementation of limited order is competitive
I would like a practise mode, and I need the max order per turn or a "reset" order button per unit (better IMHO)
</TL;DR>

[MikeGER]

ORIGINAL: Tim James
However, there is no option to autosave at the beginning of the orders phase so I'd have to do it manually, assuming I remember. Therefore, the only limit is my patience and tolerance for inconvenience. That's not an "interesting challenge" in the sense of game design.

Tim, There is an option for autosave, its in the User Preferences

Well, its auto-saves after the order phase ...so You just load the save before, and press play ...marble on what you see on the screen, how the battle unfold (maybe watching the last turn replayed helps you with making a better choice now for the upcoming turn) ...before You can give the maybe single order you can get over the network, again

Concerning the chess approach :
Well last time I saw those grandmasters starring at the board and analyses the situation with their head first, not with moving pieces and taking them back several time and then finally tell the referee: OK now its for real and tick the chess clock
and surly no 'retake' after the clock is switched

MadRussian,Looks like some people just don't get the hang of the 'game'.
Gents its not a puzzle, a strategy game, its more a in the direction of a WW-III simulator[8D]

Tipp for new players:
keep in mind when you 'analyses a situation on the map' do it more in a Zen-like way, that take into account: you will probably never see exact the same situation again when you visit that scenario again and again and again[:)]

[DoubleDeuce]

Aren't the available/remaining orders in the Player Tab, am at work and cannot check at the moment.

[CapnDarwin]

Yes, the number of orders show on the Player tab. Yes, you can edit waypoint timing by right clicking on a waypoint. The "cancel order" function is issuing a new order. If you are using limited orders that is one of the restrictions. The idea of showing the current total of issued orders in an unlimited game is a good idea and we will add it to the list.

[davidoux]

The "cancel order" function is issuing a new order

what is the "cancel order" function, I can not find it (delete waypoints ? )

The idea of showing the current total of issued orders in an unlimited game is a good idea

I think there is a misunderstanding, the total issued orders is currently available in unlimited, under the player tab,
what is missing is the max number of orders that we would get if we were playing with limited orders

[CapnDarwin]

Okay, I see what you are saying. Show the max number and a count like what there is in Limited Orders. Just no limit being used.

[davidoux]

Yes for the max number (The count is already available)