..just observed ..

[Arralen]

Started "Preparing the Way" campaign some days before to test out v4.0, and one of those !*§%"§! Do 217 blasted a whole platoon plus Scout Car out of existence.
(Bomb damage is way to high now, I hope this is corrected in v4.1, or I'll have to go through all OOBs and halve their stats )

So I tried out calling for reenforcements, and promptly 2 Grants and 2 Greyhounds carrying Bazooka Teams arrived.
Won this one, but that's not what matters.

After the battle I found out that the reenforcements have been added to my core force ?! .. and this shouldn't be the case, right?

Arralen

[Paul Vebber]

You are such a good leader they want to follow you!!

Bombs are devestating weapons...we feel the effectiveness is a proper balance between blast and suppression. But if you disagree - thats why we put the editor in - no two people will ever agree on every game stat.

[Fredde]

Balanced to the cost of the aircrafts and that they can fly only one mission with bombs i think it's correct that they hurt badly. Also, they only do that much damage when you have infantry/unprotected vehicles on clear ground.

[Arralen]

Originally posted by Fredde:
Balanced to the cost of the aircrafts and that they can fly only one mission with bombs i think it's correct that they hurt badly. Also, they only do that much damage when you have infantry/unprotected vehicles on clear ground.

You're wrong here, sadly. The scout car as well as the Inf was advancing slowly (1hex/turn) through some tree hexes .. git blasted away like nothing. Even a scout sqd 2 hexes away in a stone building got 1 casualty and heavy depression, err, suppression from 4 250kg bombs landing 100m away. Not what I would call realistic - if it would have been the really big ones, ok, but this is a bit exaggerated IMHO.

And, Paul, I really don't want to have to go all 28 OOBs and change some ..200 ?? bombs and heavy arty pieces . that's no fun really. Maybe we can find a "middle of the road"-agreement most player can get along with .. damage was a bit low in 2.x, but in 4.0 it's a bit too high - middle of it would be good, wouldn't it?

Arralen

[Fredde]

Ouch, i have only seen those casualties on clear terrain.. I'd better watch out

[Kharan]

You must also take price into consideration. The OOB cost of one DO 217E-2 is 149 points. With the same amount of points, you can buy about 10 rifle squads. Which purchase will do you more good? Which one would you rather face in battle?

Generally I'd say the infantry is more reliable and more easily made use of, but with C2 it isn't certain. With the Dornier, you must take the risk of it being out of contact when you need it, the risk of it bombing the wrong place and even the risk of it being shot down before it does anything.

The Dornier can still be useful in a situation where you have a dug-in opponent and a blind charge (even with 10 more squads) would be nothing but massacre.

[This message has been edited by Kharan (edited September 29, 2000).]

[Mac_MatrixForum]

I like the new bomb stats, finally bombs are an alternative to rockets/cannons, but the damage to range 2 hexes is sometimes a bit much (like that 1 casualty into a building which is a good example). Otherwise, I have no problem with bombing runs.

I got frequently bombed in a 20 battle generated campaign. I used to buy some AA which helped. I don't think a human would normally buy that many planes, though. As said, I'd rather take 10 infantry squads so I don't think the planes are at all dominating.


------------------
Markku "Mac" Rontu

"Understanding is a three-edged sword,
your side, their side and the truth."
- Sheridan in B5

[Warhorse]

Hey guys, this has been addressed in 4.1, to my knowledge, but thanks for the input, it's always appreciated, I too felt the wrath of the dreaded bomb syndrome, ..not pretty!!

------------------
Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

[BobD]

Originally posted by Arralen:
Do 217 blasted a whole platoon plus Scout Car out of existence.

I would not have thought that the entire air support mechanism could be invalidated by a single observation...!

If this happens all the time, well maybe there is a problem, but based on the randomness built into the combat system I would accept occasional such events as meaning, e.g., the plane was lucky enough to get a critical hit and land a bomb smack in the middle of the squad - maybe they were just moving out at that point.... I don't have a problem with this happening occasionally. Dispersion of the effect is fine too and well documented, although perhaps with aircraft I would expect this to happen only in the direction of the attack (i.e. not to the side too much).

I have found air support to be totally varied - most of the time attacking aircraft have done little or no real damage (suppression yes) : in a scenario I played where there was quite a lot of air support enemy attacking fighters did no damage, except once when they popped a bomb right on a defensive squad, killed a load of the men, and dispersed the rest. Frustrating, but as it does not happen all the time I reckon that it is right.

My vote is: do not change the rules too much! Then again, what "has been addressed in v4.1"??

Best regards

Bob

[Arralen]

Originally posted by BobD:
I would not have thought that the entire air support mechanism could be invalidated by a single observation...!
If this happens all the time, well maybe there is a problem, but based on the randomness built into the combat system I would accept occasional such events as meaning ...
My vote is: do not change the rules too much! Then again, what "has been addressed in v4.1"??

It happens nearly all the time .. would you like to have the savegame to try ?? (I save every turn in another slot when I'm testing new version ..)
Never said "change the rules very much - that's what happend up to now IMHO - at first, lots complaints that aircraft do too few damage, and now they blast everything they attack to pieces .. there should be something in between that's just right, shouldn't it?

Dunno if there's something changed in v4.1 - only thing I noticed that Arty still does more casualties in neighbouring hexes than in the target hex.

Arralen

[Kharan]

This is probably the thing that has changed in v4.1:

34. Near blast damage reduced to 67% of current value vs. infantry.

Never said "change the rules very much - that's what happend up to now IMHO - at first, lots complaints that aircraft do too few damage, and now they blast everything they attack to pieces.

You're talking about the heavy bombers here? Don't generalize all aircraft .

I don't think that even in v4.0 the bombers are too effective compared to their OOB costs (if they were, every DO217 on every run would annihilate 10 squads). They may be too effective vs infantry compared to the general idea of realism. In v4.1 they may be closer to realism, but also further away from "point-worthiness". It's not a easy thing to balance .

Think about it this way: whenever a Dornier bombs your troops, the AI just lost 10 squads .

[This message has been edited by Kharan (edited September 29, 2000).]

[Dave_R]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Arralen:
You're wrong here, sadly. The scout car as well as the Inf was advancing slowly (1hex/turn) through some tree hexes .. git blasted away like nothing. Even a scout sqd 2 hexes away in a stone building got 1 casualty and heavy depression, err, suppression from 4 250kg bombs landing 100m away. Not what I would call realistic - if it would have been the really big ones, ok, but this is a bit exaggerated IMHO.

Take it from me having a 250kg bomb going off just a 100yards from you is frigging depressing! I discovered that the hard way, curtisy of the Argentine Air force. It might not have that dangerouse I guess, but I was busy making like a mole and not to kean on looking to see what the exact blast radius was!