Supply distribution in 1.08

[loki100]

I'm not sure that the supply distribution routine in 1.08 is working as before. Even if the new version is as designed, its having quite an impact. The table below is my supply situation over the last 9 turns. Of these T54 & T55 were run under 1.07 and T56 was the first I received back where the patch had applied.



Broadly the total supply position has improved, on T54 I had 64% of what I notionally needed and my front line units had 80% of their need. As you can see with the patch my total supply position has improved (the volume has increased and demand dropped) to almost 87%. But the supply in unit has gone down to 33%. For many units it is much worse, some only have 1 or 2 supply points and that is having an impact on their morale.

The attached shows a rifle division, more than 10 hexes to the rear on a rail:



My understanding is there is no reason why it shouldn't be receiving its supply allocation. For units in a less ideal position, they are far worse off.

Any reasons?

[carlkay58]

If I recall correctly version 1.08 is better about reducing the amount of extra supplies in combat units - especially non-motorized units. The reason is that the non-motorized units were demanding more than they needed and (due to a bug) not using it. That meant that you had extra trucks being required to move the unnecessary supplies in the units when they moved. Version 1.08 then fixed the demand level to what they truly needed AND expended the supply that was supposed to be expended. Since you are looking at units AFTER the supplies are distributed and used, the supply levels have dropped. Since they are not demanding more than they need, the supply levels have dropped some more.

Version 1.08 thus makes it work as it should rather than as it has in the past.

[Denniss]

What's the situation of the 6th Army HQ? Must be a reason it ships out that low amount of supplies.
How big is your global supply store (+ need)?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

If I recall correctly version 1.08 is better about reducing the amount of extra supplies in combat units - especially non-motorized units. The reason is that the non-motorized units were demanding more than they needed and (due to a bug) not using it. That meant that you had extra trucks being required to move the unnecessary supplies in the units when they moved. Version 1.08 then fixed the demand level to what they truly needed AND expended the supply that was supposed to be expended. Since you are looking at units AFTER the supplies are distributed and used, the supply levels have dropped. Since they are not demanding more than they need, the supply levels have dropped some more.

Version 1.08 thus makes it work as it should rather than as it has in the past.

thanks for this, so does that mean the reported need for non-motorised units is substantially overstated?

ORIGINAL: Denniss

What's the situation of the 6th Army HQ? Must be a reason it ships out that low amount of supplies.
How big is your global supply store (+ need)?

Its pretty typical of all the army HQs, in fact its better than most as it too is on a rail and to the rear - its why I picked a unit that I'd have suspected should have no problems as opposed to one in a swamp at maximum HQ range and well away from a rail head.

The global situation is fine (or good enough), I have 87% of what I need ie 284k/327k, so its a distribution not a production dynamic

[loki100]

Sorry to ask more about this but I've put together a new comparison. This shows a unit that didn't move in either turn and the supply etc situation immediately on turn receipt, so I've made no moves or adjustments.

The Abn Brigade is on a rail, next to the HQ and about 5 hexes behind the front.

On T61 it had 9/22 required supplies and on T62 it had 5/22. It used 6 on T61 and 9 in T62 and received 7 and 5 respectively. So 9 (T61 stock)-9 (T62 interturn usage)+5 (T62 interturn receipt) fits to the 5 shown for T62. I guess my confusion is what does the 22 model in this case?

The other 2 brigades are much the same (and located next to the HQ etc)?

[morvael]

Please wait for 1.08.01, it fixes a few things with resource needs and consumption.
However, supply stocks will always be lower due to the fact that they are consumed during logistics phase.
In 1.08 some were reserved for and consumed during movement as well, now all fodder will be substracted during logistics.

[morvael]

Supply needs, especially for infantry, were larger than actual consumption:
1) of the regular needs unit consumed either 50% or 75% (depending on admin roll) - this is changed to a constant of 60% in 1.08.01
2) in case of shortage (less than 100% need on hand) unit consumed less - this reduced chances to get morale increases
3) some parts were reserved and consumed during movement
4) non-motorized units had extra need, presumably fodder for horse-drawn supply wagons, which wasn't used in any way (only the horse-drawn elements like artillery used supplies, half in logistics phase, half was used during movement), leading to them having higher supply % than motorized units

In 1.08 units should stay around 40% of supply need after logistics phase, with no more consumed during movement phase.

[morvael]

I see your global supply stocks are very low. I hope path 1.08 will restore the balance a bit in your favour. I haven't seen so low supply stocks in my games. Perhaps you lost a lot of HI and the change to make HI more important (by reducing their supply production multiplier) was a nasty "surprise" to your forces after patching the game.

[morvael]

It is a known "feature" of the system, that in case of global shortages there will be some cities (where stocks have to be transported first) and units (in case of multiple units taking supply from the same city) that will be starved. This was alleviated a bit with 1.08, so that if the city will get less, each unit taking supplies from that city will also take less supplies, so that last one in the line will get something, but there was no fix to make sure each city lacks the same percentage of supplies as "global" shows.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: morvael

I see your global supply stocks are very low. I hope path 1.08 will restore the balance a bit in your favour. I haven't seen so low supply stocks in my games. Perhaps you lost a lot of HI and the change to make HI more important (by reducing their supply production multiplier) was a nasty "surprise" to your forces after patching the game.

thanks for the explanations.

I've 164 HI, so I don't think its that bad? But yes I was following the usual 1.07 logic of being prepared to loose HI to save armaments production (at least up to a point). My only comparison pts are a couple of AI games when I had around 200-210 HI at this stage.

edit - dumb question but why is global in the screen shots showing as 40% when in the production screen my supply volume (depot+units) is over 85%?

[morvael]

It's hard to answer this questions with 100% accuracy. Some numbers in the game are off. For example up to 1.08.01 unit supply needs were reduced by the amount consumed, so the % was higher, but then unit requested more during logistics when the true number was calculated. City needs include only industry need and perhaps railyard/port need and population need, but not unit need, thus their stocks will again look as having better % of need than IRL. And the global number calculated during request phase may be worse than it actually is because later units require less supplies as this is based on their location and other conditions, but this is not included in calculating global need.

All in all you have to save more HI now and then there will be no problems. This is again one place where 1.07 "logic" hurts you in 1.08, because 1.08 wanted to counter the fact that HI was deemed useless.

edit: in my game I saved 189 HI and I have no shortages. Maybe something bad happened to you game? Do you have supply stock numbers for all turns?

[Denniss]

The tactic to leave HI for capture had always been ahistorical/gamey so now you have to pay the price. AFAIR in 43 the HI facs get a higher modifier so they produce some more supplies.
To conserve some supplies you may want to move some factories producing some stuff you don't want/need to another location, examples would be U-2VS and LaGG aircraft, move just one point and it will take long to repair and to recover to full size. Do the same with Il-2 if they build up a major stockpile.
You would also have to limit offensive operations to certain fronts, not moving the whole frontline at once.

[carlkay58]

Which raises an interesting point in my mind. How nasty will the U-2VS aircraft be with the WitW air system? Think of all those aircraft flying interdiction . . .

[Denniss]

Dead meat if attacking in daylight, nasty through causing disruption at night. I doubt this disruption will raise interdiction level a lot (if ever).

[morvael]

further info for loki100: "Global" in the screenshot is supposed to be percentage of free supplies/fuel versus what the units want, where free is the amount present over city requirements which include resources for factories, ports, railyards and people. Once again, new rules for this in 1.08 can cause disturbance in the stocks across cities and these will take some time to settle. Newly started scenarios do not have these problems.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: morvael

further info for loki100: "Global" in the screenshot is supposed to be percentage of free supplies/fuel versus what the units want, where free is the amount present over city requirements which include resources for factories, ports, railyards and people. Once again, new rules for this in 1.08 can cause disturbance in the stocks across cities and these will take some time to settle. Newly started scenarios do not have these problems.

thank you (again). Keeping an eye on the global line it seems to be recovering by 1 percentage point every turn even if the ratio on the production screen stays at roughly 87% of need being available. I'll keep an eye on this over the next few turns.

[morvael]

At least I see that "S-Demand store" (I'm not really sure which number on the production screen it is) is smaller every turn after the patch was applied, so the situation improves (albeit slowly). What is "Supply (depot)"? Unit need didn't change much, which is good. If you want to address the issue for the airborne corps, try to move its HQ to a city with a lot of free supplies. If you want to affect global supply store, try to remove as many transports from airbases as you can (to reserve) and damage (by moving) some aircraft factories like the U-2VS. You can also stop supplying the partisans if you have this turned on.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: morvael

At least I see that "S-Demand store" (I'm not really sure which number on the production screen it is) is smaller every turn after the patch was applied, so the situation improves (albeit slowly). What is "Supply (depot)"? Unit need didn't change much, which is good. If you want to address the issue for the airborne corps, try to move its HQ to a city with a lot of free supplies. If you want to affect global supply store, try to remove as many transports from airbases as you can (to reserve) and damage (by moving) some aircraft factories like the U-2VS. You can also stop supplying the partisans if you have this turned on.

thanks. The number is the one in brackets related to supply levels in depot. And yes, each turn does seem a bit easier.

I've been actively managing my production by moving a number of air factories, if I have plenty in the pool I've moved one of the factories of a type so that should reduce supply usage there. I've also prioritised the usage of lend lease air as I don't pay for their replacements with my own supply. So hopefully all this will come together.

ORIGINAL: Denniss

The tactic to leave HI for capture had always been ahistorical/gamey so now you have to pay the price. AFAIR in 43 the HI facs get a higher modifier so they produce some more supplies.
To conserve some supplies you may want to move some factories producing some stuff you don't want/need to another location, examples would be U-2VS and LaGG aircraft, move just one point and it will take long to repair and to recover to full size. Do the same with Il-2 if they build up a major stockpile.
You would also have to limit offensive operations to certain fronts, not moving the whole frontline at once.

I heartily agree with the intent here and the extent that the wierd logic of moving 4/7/10 factories was a good trick is now useless. My problem of course was conducting my 1941 evacuations under what was seen as the norm. If the longer term outcome is to limit Soviet supply in the late game so you get the partial and stop start offensives of the real war that is a bonus too.

[loki100]

Just to update this discussion, we have applied the 1.08-1 patch and run a couple of turns and the supply situation is becoming worse. This chart shows the shifts as we applied 1.08 (between 55 and 56) and 1.08.1 (between 64 and 65).

To me, and I claim no depth of understanding, something is going very wrong. Back in T54 I had 65% of all the supplies I needed and the units had 80%. By T64, I had 80% of all the supplies I needed, the depots are full to bursting (95% of their needs) and the front line units are starving (30% of need). Now I accept that some (most) of the growth in the depots is precisely due to non-consumption.

By T66, the overall supply position has settled at 80%, the depots remain full (95%) and the units are now down to under 20%.

I've units, in the rear, on a rail, next to their HQ with 1%.


I don't see how this is just a product of the lower HI multiplier? I realise that global supply is going up as I am not able to consume it, but why are the depots not allocating supply to my combat units?

[morvael]

It is expected that you will see supply in units only a small % of supply required by units, because they consume what they need during the logistics phase and for the entire turn their supply status does not matter.

On the other hand - is your global supply % now > 100%? Do units really get what they want during the logistics phase?