Movement Issue

[obvert]

A few turns ago I sent all units moving from one hex on the rail line between Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie to another two hexes forward along the rail. Most units moved ahead normally and together. Three armor units decided to move three hexes to go two, moving off the rail line and away from AA coverage. Of course then they were pummeled from the air without protection and slowed further so they can now be hit mercilessly for several turns.

I checked before the turn in question to make sure all units were moving together. I noticed that all units stated they would go forward to the same hex and that they all had moved some miles of the 46 total to get there, but none listed a longer distance.

This has not been an isolated problem, and seems to come up continually when units are set to move more than one hex. Some choose different paths for no apparent reason, even in completely uniform terrain. Sometimes, as in this case, they actually choose a path that will take longer than the one the others take along a road or path.

Here is a current screenshot. I'll post the turn file in the next post.

[obvert]

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[btd64]

Yeah, I have seen something like that. I just thought the CO couldn't read a map.[:D] But sometimes I have seen this happen....GP

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: General Patton

Yeah, I have seen something like that. I just thought the CO couldn't read a map.[:D] But sometimes I have seen this happen....GP

Maybe that is it. The CO's Experience or some other trait. Might want to look at your CO's traits. Just a thought....GP

[Bullwinkle58]

I had similar but not exactly the same issues in OZ in my Lokasenna game. North of Perth in the hexes where there are both roads and RRs. I suspect there is funkiness in the pwhex management for the case where you are moving in Move mode on a hex with a railroad. I've never had an LCU fall off a RR while in strat mode.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I've never had an LCU fall off a RR while in strat mode.

I have had that. Also in OZ. Moving from Alice to Brisbane. [:)]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: General Patton

ORIGINAL: General Patton

Yeah, I have seen something like that. I just thought the CO couldn't read a map.[:D] But sometimes I have seen this happen....GP

Maybe that is it. The CO's Experience or some other trait. Might want to look at your CO's traits. Just a thought....GP

It's something that happens regularly and is due to some setting where the armor thinks it can get there faster going in faster terrain, but still listing that it's try ing to go direct (in this case when I looked it was one hex away from destination and all had 26-28/46 for their movement, just like the other units in the stack, but those instead moved off to go two hexes, slower than the rest).

This is continually a problem, and requires all kinds of fiddlyness, in this case moving one hex at a time and forgoing any extra accrued movement that would eventually make these units move faster if you could use it.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I had similar but not exactly the same issues in OZ in my Lokasenna game. North of Perth in the hexes where there are both roads and RRs. I suspect there is funkiness in the pwhex management for the case where you are moving in Move mode on a hex with a railroad. I've never had an LCU fall off a RR while in strat mode.

It happens regularly on roads of any type, gray road, yellow road, path. The units 'think' off road is a faster option when it's not. That seems like a bug to me. They also 'show movement as if they're moving where you want them, and if you're not incredibly careful to see every pointer you can miss some getting off track. Even if I saw these I'd lose some movement in having to stop them.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I've never had an LCU fall off a RR while in strat mode.

I have had that. Also in OZ. Moving from Alice to Brisbane. [:)]

I think long ago--several years now--there was a bug for this. Don't want to check all the patch notes, but I remember it was fixed for strat.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: General Patton

ORIGINAL: General Patton

Yeah, I have seen something like that. I just thought the CO couldn't read a map.[:D] But sometimes I have seen this happen....GP

Maybe that is it. The CO's Experience or some other trait. Might want to look at your CO's traits. Just a thought....GP

It's something that happens regularly and is due to some setting where the armor thinks it can get there faster going in faster terrain, but still listing that it's try ing to go direct (in this case when I looked it was one hex away from destination and all had 26-28/46 for their movement, just like the other units in the stack, but those instead moved off to go two hexes, slower than the rest).

This is continually a problem, and requires all kinds of fiddlyness, in this case moving one hex at a time and forgoing any extra accrued movement that would eventually make these units move faster if you could use it.

It can be a major tactical problem, yes. In my case, to keep the armor on the roads, I had to go 1-hex at a time. I was pursuing fleeing IDs WITH TANKS. As you lose any accumulated miles left when you get to the 1-hex target, Lokasenna was continually ahead of me as I couldn't give next-hex orders until the next turn and he got a 1-turn head start a couple of times, which adds up. Most of the infantry got away and was lifted out.

[witpqs]

As best I recall, you can circumvent this by specifying movement to the adjacent hex. Upon arrival there, order movement to the next hex, and so on. Not ideal, I understand, but IIRC it works.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

As best I recall, you can circumvent this by specifying movement to the adjacent hex. Upon arrival there, order movement to the next hex, and so on. Not ideal, I understand, but IIRC it works.

But it doesn't in many cases. If you have one mile to go to the next hex, where your prey is already, you move one mile and stop, losing the rest of the move allocation for that turn, which for armor on a road is a lot of miles. Meanwhile your prey in the hex you've just moved into gets his full move allocation toward escaping once more. Do this a few times in a long pursuit, as in NW OZ, and soon the prey is two hexes ahead and you have recon issues as well.

[witpqs]

Yes, that is what makes it "less than ideal".

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Yes, that is what makes it "less than ideal".

You have a wry sense of humor, sir. [:)]

In any event, multiple IJA IDs escaped certain destruction.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Yes, that is what makes it "less than ideal".

You have a wry sense of humor, sir. [:)]

In any event, multiple IJA IDs escaped certain destruction.

I would say only probable [:)]. However, you can't chase your opponent, strictly speaking - he will control the hex side he is moving through to get out of Hex B, so even if you are moving from Hex A...you can't make progress on his retreat because you're not allowed to move through that hex side. If there's a flaw here, it's in the basic ground combat model related to hexes as a unit, movement within that unit, and how hex side control interacts with all of that.

However... If your opponent leaves the hex on the same time, you should be able to make that progress because you will have moved into an empty hex. And moving 1 hex at a time precludes that.


I've seen the OP behavior a few times. Never in areas like this - it's usually where there are multiple options for movement (grey roads, dirt roads, what I look at as farmland, etc.).

Obvert, you should try moving them in Reserve mode - it'll protect them somewhat from AA and still move faster than Combat mode [;)]. I'm convinced that there are absolutely no downsides to Reserve mode. Whatsoever.

[obvert]

This particular situation would not be changed by reserve mode. It's about the direction of movement. I'm not trying to chase or get them to move faster, only stay with the group. For that I chose move mode for the other units and combat mode for these armor units. They went 'off-road' for a three hex journey to cover only two hexes and got there after the units on the rail.

Units in reserve mode take more damage from bombing anyway than units in combat mode.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: obvert

This particular situation would not be changed by reserve mode. It's about the direction of movement. I'm not trying to chase or get them to move faster, only stay with the group. For that I chose move mode for the other units and combat mode for these armor units. They went 'off-road' for a three hex journey to cover only two hexes and got there after the units on the rail.

Units in reserve mode take more damage from bombing anyway than units in combat mode.

If you say so... I'm convinced they actually take less, or at least the same amount. In combat mode my units in the open have been shredded. In Reserve mode, at the very least their disruption is lower than it otherwise would have been. That's a whole other issue, though. Likely that I'll never sandbox it.

Anyway, I meant to suggest that Reserve mode could alleviate a bit of the aerial pounding, not that it would affect the movement algorithms themselves in any way.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I would say only probable [:)]. However, you can't chase your opponent, strictly speaking - he will control the hex side he is moving through to get out of Hex B, so even if you are moving from Hex A...you can't make progress on his retreat because you're not allowed to move through that hex side. If there's a flaw here, it's in the basic ground combat model related to hexes as a unit, movement within that unit, and how hex side control interacts with all of that.

However... If your opponent leaves the hex on the same time, you should be able to make that progress because you will have moved into an empty hex. And moving 1 hex at a time precludes that.

If he leaves and you remain in Hex A alone, don't you then control the "inside door" of A? And can leave it for B? That's what seemed to happen several times in our game. The problem was as I said; I sat in A with zero miles progress as you left, so I had to transit A while you moved inside B. When I got to B I lost all left-over miles from that move, you were 30-some miles across B, and left as I was chasing you in B. At least that's what it looked like to me.

If I could have caught up by not having miles zeroed on the hex pass I could have gone ahead of you with one unit while pinning with the other (contested hex), and then the two USMC IDs trailing the armor could have entered and finished you.

[Bullwinkle58]

To follow up on my post above . . .

I did a short testbed game in NW OZ. I have never done a pure stern-chase on land like this before my PBEM experience with Lokasenna, and hexside control is my least favorite part of the land models, and one I constantly make mistakes with.

I put an IJA infantry unit one hex north of Geraldton on the yellow road. I put it in Move mode, and told it to go to Carnavon. I had a mixed infantry/AFV Aussie unit in Geraldton. I gave the Japanese a day's head start. The hexsides in Geraldton were all green (inside) and the IJN hex all red (inside.) (Except for the water sides, which I ignore.)

On the next turn the Aussie unit happily accepted orders to move into the hex due north, across the green inside side and the red outside side. I gave it only a 1-hex move order.

The Aussie unit caught the Japanese unit in the due north hex with the Japanese at (memory) 28 miles. Here I was wrong above. An attack was possible. I did a DA. The Japanese didn't lose their 28 miles though, and the Aussies remained at, I think, 0 miles progress.

I changed the Aussies to a multi-hex move, target Carnavon. A stern chase. I varied the Aussies between Move and Combat so they didn't over-run the IJA. Just to the SE of the twin bights that run NM-S, the Aussies "fell off the road" to the NW. They ended up in a pure desert hex. The Japanese continued up the yellow road for several turns. The Aussies went NW, then turned due east, and moved into a second desert hex. The Japanese pulled ahead as the Auusies came back onto the road one hex south of them. And THEN the Aussies drove off the road AGAIN, this time due east of the road, again in desert. They went north, then turned due west as the Japanese made the Carnavon hex. They entered through a green (inside) and red (outside) hexside as Japan took ownership of Carnavon without a fight. I did not do battle.

The Carnavon hexsides were all inside/outside red, except the due east one which was inside/outside green. BUT,next turn, I was allowed to give the Aussies move orders across the southern hexside. I hit the nationality ownership hotkey and Carnavon still was a Code 30 for Australia.

So color me confused. Why the Aussies refused the road twice when staying on it would have co-located them with the IJA I don't know. The AV of the two was very different, with the Aussies much weaker. I didn't look at COs. But something made them avoid a direct order and turn into slower terrain.

[witpqs]

Moose, even though in your mind it was a stern chase, to the code it was not. You gave the unit orders to move to Carnavon, and the routing algorithm worked to that order. The IJ unit was in the way, so the routing algorithm routed around it.

There is no 'chase' order in the game, save the short-range one of 'pursue' that is available for some LCU during combat. And AFAIK, that only works into the retreat hex of a defeated defender.

Having a 'chase' order would be a good addition, but I don't know if it is in the cards. A question for Michael, obviously.