Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized?

[Smirfy]

Dont know about the Americans but the British infantry had their organic transport even in France 1940 but I see in game they plod along just like our horse drawn Wehrmacht

[carlkay58]

The <I can't recall the term they use> divisions only spend 5 MPs to do a deliberate attack and also have different MP costs/hex than non-motorized divisions. The problem is that they have organic transport but not enough to transport the entire division - usually only a single brigade/regiment.

[Smirfy]

The divisions did not walk across the desert and I have never heard of British divisions running a shuttle. The Motor Brigade term is confusing because they tended to use half tracks, whilst the infantry did not fight from their trucks they used them to move not suffering as much fatigue as their German brothers. Churchill was famously critical of the fact there were nearly as mant drivers in the Anzio beachhead as infanrty. This game is turning into war in the 5th dimension rather than war in the West

[IslandInland]

I'm sure British infantry divisions were fully motorised but I don't have any evidence I can point to. It's just something I've always assumed.

[Smirfy]

(after dunkirk) "The infantry division gained a regiment (battalion) of the reconnaissance corps, the MG battalion became organic, an LAA regiment was added and the brigade anti-tank companies removed. By 1944 the division had increased to about 18,400 all ranks and 3,350 vehicles, including 595 armoured carriers, almost 1000 radios, 1,262 LMGs, 40 MMGs, 436 PIATs, 110 anti-tank guns, 359 mortars, 72 field guns and 125 LAA guns."


I think one can safely say the Tommy did not walk

[Baelfiin]

You can choose to be motorized all the time if you wish ......

[RedLancer]

Not really - Tommy did walk in the main - British Inf Divs fought on foot. I suggest you read 18 Platoon by Sydney Jary.

The British were motorised in that they didn't use any horses but an Inf Div did not have enough organic lift to move the Infantry Sections around the battlefield in a truck. You will see in historic OOBs - Inf Bdes and Lorried Inf Bdes which had organic lift. As an aside WitW has a much more complicated approach to motorisation than WitE - you can permanently motorise some units (edit: as shown above)

[Smirfy]

The British Army had a quaint regimental system and the unorganic lift would be provided by the Transport companies of the Royal Army Service Corps. If a unit was fighting say at Cassino the Transport companies would be ferrying supplies and the like, if it was expected they were going move the Transport companies would move them. Whilst organic transport did not cover the lift of the Division the higher HQ transport companies did. So for all intents and purposes the British infantry Division was motorized. Like I said there is a difference form fighting from trucks and half track like the motor brigades and having them for transport. What it boils down to game wise is that a British infantry division had the ability to move a great distance with little fatigue without jumping through hoops

[RedLancer]

As you say the Inf Div transport was not sufficient to move the Div independently therefore the Inf Div is not a WitW motorised unit by default. The game models the ability to motorize (and stay motorized)by drawing trucks from the pool. What's the problem?

[Baelfiin]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


The British Army had a quaint regimental system and the unorganic lift would be provided by the Transport companies of the Royal Army Service Corps. If a unit was fighting say at Cassino the Transport companies would be ferrying supplies and the like, if it was expected they were going move the Transport companies would move them. Whilst organic transport did not cover the lift of the Division the higher HQ transport companies did. So for all intents and purposes the British infantry Division was motorized. Like I said there is a difference form fighting from trucks and half track like the motor brigades and having them for transport. What it boils down to game wise is that a British infantry division had the ability to move a great distance with little fatigue without jumping through hoops

3 clicks is a lot of hoops for sure.

I guess if the infantry was all motorized you would qq about that because it wouldn't be right fighting in close terrain ...

[cmunson]

The game models the ability to motorize (and stay motorized)by drawing trucks from the pool. What's the problem?
-Red Lancer

No problem here. Motorize and you have less trucks for logistic needs. Those are the kind of tradeoffs a player can decide for himself that few if any other games provide.

Regimental system may be "quaint" but it's worked for a few centuries now.

[JeffroK]

The DDay assault and follow up Divisions were severly stripped of Motor transport, so their arrival across the beaches should be as "foot infantry". Later their transport arrives so at some point a British Infantry Division should be able to carry its own troops on its own transport. Its WE included 595 Carriers, 881 15cwt Trucks, 1056 3 Ton Lorries, 205 Tractors (for guns?), 495 misc Cars & 983 motorcycles.
American Infantry Divisions did not have as much transport and had to use Corps units to completely transport its men & equipment.

At least you have the option ingame to motorise your Divisions.

[Q-Ball]

I haven't played enough to see, but do the western allies have "ample" truck pools to motorize several units if they choose? I would assume the answer is yes, but just wondering what it looks like in practice.

I would expect the Wehrmacht to be severely constrained in vehicle pool

[cmunson]

Yes, Allies have ample truck pools although if moving fast and far from rail/depots they can get soaked up quickly for logistics. Yes, Germans never have enough trucks but it gets easier as they fall back on their depots.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: chris.munson

Yes, Allies have ample truck pools although if moving fast and far from rail/depots they can get soaked up quickly for logistics. Yes, Germans never have enough trucks but it gets easier as they fall back on their depots.

I'm finding that any kind of combat burns through German trucks very quickly. Even with only 15-20 divisions involved, low Allied Interdiction values (AI), not moving much and winning nearly every combat the Germans lose 5'000 to 8'000 trucks per turn.

[Smirfy]

Are you losing 17,000 American "vehicles" and no British?

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: chris.munson

The game models the ability to motorize (and stay motorized)by drawing trucks from the pool. What's the problem?
-Red Lancer

No problem here. Motorize and you have less trucks for logistic needs. Those are the kind of tradeoffs a player can decide for himself that few if any other games provide.

Regimental system may be "quaint" but it's worked for a few centuries now.

Im not realy sure your getting the quaint regimental system, If for instance a Division needed DUKWs becase they were fighting in the Scheldt they would get DukWs if they were fighting in the desert they would get Lorries if they were fighting in Burma they would get mules. It is a rare display of flexibility. The Transport Companies were physically there but they were not on a divisional OOB. Attachment would be more correct than taking from *supply* but then you lose a slot dont you and a German infantry division remains basically the same for game purposes does it not? No five minute staff conversations there. An example the Tank Transporters were also RASC and because the British supply trucks broke down in France at an alarming rate due to a mechanical design fault the RASC welded bars on the side of the Tank transporters and used them to transport supply. Those tank transporters dont appear on an Armoured division OOB but they are there!

[RedLancer]

There is only one vehicle pool for the Allies so there are no separate trucks for US, BR, CA etc.

I do get the quaint regimental system having worked within it for over 20 years. I understand your argument for use of the 3rd line supply companies and that is what the WitW system does. There is a trade off between movement and supply which is also reflected with shipping and trains.

Tank Transporters and DUKWs are arguably abstracted as a generic vehicles. What the system does not model is Kangaroos but we can't have everything.

[Smirfy]

Now we are getting somewhere, Okay perhaps I should be clearer to get to the rub. We have a five minute Staff conversation at 21st Army Group. Wheras at OB West what do we do. "We are going to motorize your Division" Right okay sir what do I do with the horses? Do I give them to another unit, Do I set them free? Are you supplying trucks aswell for the Horses and the fodder? If we can get it past the RSPCA we can always slaughter and eat them but those kinda things play out bad propaganda wise. The *fact* is the motorization of an Allied division was not a problem to all intents and purposes that you can reflect in game they were motorized. Any problem with their motorization was logistical not physical. The differention of strategy involved deploying a German infantry division and Allied one were light years apart. This is one of the fundamental differences between the armies that should be reflected in game.

[RedLancer]

Can I suggest that before we continue this discussion you read Paragraph 14.1.3 in the Game Manual and Pages 13 and 51 of the Editor Manual - specifically the paragraphs titled Motorized/Non-Motorized and Motorization.

I think you may find that the differentiation already exists but perhaps not quite how you would like it to be.