Vyazma pocket woes

[nico71]

Hello!

I've tried to recreate the Vyazma pocket at the start of of Operation Typhoon (1.08 beta). I've tested both the Typhoon scenario and the Moscow 41'-42' scenario several times. In both cases I was unable to close the pocket. Instead I found my Pz corps surrounded by Soviet units after the AI turn pretty much every time. I've never managed to isolate any Soviet units myself, they always leaked through at some point. Instead the Soviets lauched a quite successful counter-offensive. I do realize that Vyazma isn't Minsk, and that many Soviets escaped (I think Glantz mentioned ~250.000). So just a general question: is this a balancing issue or do I need to go back to basic tutorials?

[timmyab]

You probably need to improve your Axis technique.
Me and Morvael played the Moscow 41-42 scenario recently and the conclusion was that the scenario drastically favors the Axis. Most of the Soviet armies can be pocketed on turn one with no hope of escaping.

[morvael]

Wanted to respond in the same vein, but timmyab beat me to it. I did have trouble by not capturing Vyazma early, but the bulk of two or three fronts were encircled and lost.

[nico71]

Due to time constraints I play WITE only once in a while and stick to small scenarios. I didn't have any issues so far, but this one made me scratching my head! I can build up a line of units (Pz and mot, obviously) just west of Vyazma. I have tried a rather solid line (1_0_1_0), and even some checkerboarding, but it didn't work. After the AI turn some of my units are pushed back and there are always two or three holes in the line that keep the supplies flowing. With MP penalty, of course. But still. I can counter-attack, but it keeps going back and forth like this. [&:] My problem is that on turn 1 the Sov defenses eat up the movement points of my inf so I have to throw in some mobile and pz units to clear the way. These are missing later on, of course.

[morvael]

Only the region near Vyazma requires careful shielding as the corridor is narrow. In other sectors you can rely on depth of converted terrain, you can have units every 3-4 hexes and that will be enough, since the south is mostly empty and there won't be any units who could convert back 4-5 hexes of terrain. You have to break the line at three points, where the panzers are and you get two cauldrons. Smaller in the south and bigger in the north.

[nico71]

That's easier said than done! [:(] The Soviets keep pushing me back all the time!

[jwolf]

Nico, I suggest you try the opening turn for this mission with no fog of war. You'll see pretty clearly how you can form solid pockets along most of the front line. Then try it for real with regular fog. The Soviet forces look a lot more intimidating than they really are. They will get some better units for their winter counterattack, but what they have at the start can be pushed back or routed easily. All this is assuming you have normal difficulty; I admit all bets are off if you have buffed the Soviet side.

[nico71]

It didn't occur to me to utilize the zones of control in this way. What I had tried to do was to stick closer to the historical setup. That resulted in Sov divs bound for Berlin after turn 2! [X(] But now I gave a wider berth and also didn't try to close the pocket on turn 1. I guess I'm getting somewhere now...

Next problem: mud and fuel management! [:D]

My turn saves from end of T1 to start of T3 if anyone cares:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/78834166/save.7z