Very interested but...

[rroberson]

...IM a long time WITP player (10 years and still going at it) and I like what I see with WITW here on the forums but I am worried at the price point the game will be lacking the detail I have enjoyed with WITP. I guess I have gotten use micromanaging things and the scale worries me (week turns instead of days) the lack of navy isn't a big deal for the campaign, but the detail of the air campaign is (the screen captures make it look really primitive and not detailed at all) and while people are saying it's better then WITE (which my understanding was really bad) is it as good as WITP?

The price point worries me a lot I guess, if it is a classic then Im sure it will be pennies on the hour but...the jury is out.

Also, is it worth the extra 20 dollars for the hard covered manual? That would help the price a bit if you guys don't think it is.

Anyway...let errr rip...I'm really interested in this but the price point admittedly is scaring me off...(the last big game purchase I made from matrix ended up being a bust for me...so Im trying to be a bit more picky.

thanks guys.

[Dereck]

I've been playing WITP since 2004 when the first version came out.

Don't try to compare the two because WITP is naval-based (being in the Pacific) and WITW is land-based. They each stand on their own.

I'm enjoying it (despite probably some really dumb mistakes I've been making) and the manual is more like a hard-covered school book and worth it in my opinion. I'm in my 50s so I can deal with a hard-copy book a lot better than I can a PDF file.

[MisterBoats]

I'm a WITP'er from the "Pacific War" days in '92. The idea of week-long turns in WITW didn't thrill me, until I got to play it. There is so much to do in each turn that it doesn't feel like you're missing anything. With the hex scale as it is, day long turns would be unrealistic, I think. The other option would be to create a truly monster game with one mile hexes and company level units. Oh, to dream....

I bought the download version and it is perfectly sufficient for me. I wish I had ordered the hard copy manual, but the PDF is nice to have in the background as I play.

WITW is an entirely different experience compared to AE, but just as satisfying. I have no regrets over having bought it.

[ratprince]

Never played WITP, but played WITE for hundreds of hours. This game is quite awesome. So much to do and so many little details that make it amazing.

Ive logged prolly forty or more hours easily since its release. That means I spent about a buck an hour or so on the game. And I am no where near maximized utility from it. Simply so much game for such a small price. IMO, easily worth twice the price or more.

I recommend getting it if you are a serious wargamer.

[Davekhps]

I've never played WITP so can't attest to whether you will like it, but I *have* played WITE since it came out, and would strongly disagree that it's a bad game-- it's a great game, it just had a number of stubborn bugs and ahistorical balancing issues that took (too many) years to work out. But WITE was playable (and enjoyable!) on Day One.

WITW is the same. I'm certain that there are flaws "under the hood" that the community will be discovering for months (hopefully NOT years) to come, but again, it's a lot of value out of the box. Heck, I've had it for a week now and I'm *still* toying around just with the Italian campaign, lots of depth and decisions there.

And trust me: you can micromanage the heck out of the air war. In fact, it appears to me to be the only way to really score well in the bombing campaign-- the AI's just not nimble enough to run the necessary Air Directives turn after turn. (But it's very helpful in the start, as the AI's ADs give a player a good sense of what ought to be done... you just need to fine-tune it).

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: MisterBoats

I'm a WITP'er from the "Pacific War" days in '92. The idea of week-long turns in WITW didn't thrill me, until I got to play it. There is so much to do in each turn that it doesn't feel like you're missing anything. With the hex scale as it is, day long turns would be unrealistic, I think. The other option would be to create a truly monster game with one mile hexes and company level units. Oh, to dream....

I bought the download version and it is perfectly sufficient for me. I wish I had ordered the hard copy manual, but the PDF is nice to have in the background as I play.

WITW is an entirely different experience compared to AE, but just as satisfying. I have no regrets over having bought it.

I have those 90s games myself (and still have them in their original boxes.): Gary Grigsby's Pacific War, the two Russian Front games ( Second Front: Germany Turns East and Gary Grigsby's War in Russia ) and Western Front: The Liberation of Europe 1944-1945.

Strange to think that back in the 90's these games were so awesome but when compared now to the newer versions ...

Guess comparing the two generations of games would be like explaining Pong to a 20-something.

One strange thing to note: In War in the West the turns are a week but in the 90s Western Front they were 4 day turns.

[Grotius]

I am a longtime WITP/AE player too, and I like WITW a lot. Yes, in some ways it's less detailed than WITP. The naval system is abstracted, you issue Air Directives, and turns are a week long.

But in some ways WITW is actually more detailed than WITP. The most obvious way may be the land-combat system. These are 10 mile hexes, not the larger hexes of WITP and AE, so land combat is more granular and detailed, I think. The land-supply system is far more detailed and interesting in WITW, which models rolling stock and traffic jams. I find it more fun to execute land-combat moves in WITW than in WITP, whose land model has never thrilled me. Just visually, the land units in WITW are easier to see than in WITP, with those little boxes in the bottom corners of hexes.

There are also some less obvious ways in which WITW is more detailed. In WITW, you can plot the course your bombers take to target, routing them around enemy flak and airbases. Air combat doesn't take place only in the target hex, as it does in WITP; there is en-route interception. You have more control over what your bombers target, too. You can still micromanage who rests (to recover fatigue and morale) and who trains, though admittedly only on a weekly basis. You might not love the Air Directives system at first, but it grew on me quickly. It's pretty well thought-out.

Finally, there are some advantages to week-long turns. Without too much time commitment, I'm already in 1944 in my first campaign game. I started a new AI game of AE a few weeks ago, and it's still in December 1941.

In sum, I like both WITP and WITW a lot. Hope this helps.

[Banquet]

WitP and WitW are different, but they're made with the same design ethos... That being to provide the player with a rich and vast pool of data in order to play a wargame with a heavy emphasis on the logistical elements. If you've had good value from WitP I think you'd be pretty safe with WitW.

The printed manual is definitely worth the price.

[Bullwinkle58]

That's the first picture of the hard-cover manual I've seen. I have the AE manual shown in the picture. I must say that's SOME manual on the left there. Bravo Zulu.

[rroberson]

Ok...you have sold me....off to purchase and download...I'm going big and getting the hard cover manual as well.

Thanks gentlemen...see you in combat...soon.

[Banquet]

The hardcover manual - gets em every time!

[rroberson]

she is a beauty.

[Banquet]

Aye, she is

I hope you enjoy the game, rroberson

[Mac Linehan]

rrobertson -

Am also a long term WitP AE player and a serious micro manager (we should form a club...<grin>). Am very used to one day turns with detailed planning. Have finally gotten an AE campaign game turn (Andy Mac's DB A Iron Man NN as Allies) down to a more manageable three or so hours per turn. This equates to two to three turns a weekend - but I am hopelessly hooked and just love it.

Bought WitE; have read the rules twice but only played (and experimented with) the tutorial scenario. WitE was clearly a very detailed game - using a completely different design approach, that emphasized ground combat (as it should).

But... WitP AE kept calling me back.

WitP AE covers the whole pacific war in one day turns; with a balance between (in order of complexity in my view) Air (second to none in realism); Naval (outstanding - it's all about logistics) and Land Combat (well done for a 40 mile hex scale). Imperial Japan must also competently manage her industrial production - no mean task.

You already know all this - and have a great deal of experience with the game.

WitE and WitW cover the European war, in one week turns with 10 mile hexes; production is important but not alterable; protection of the German / Soviet industrial bases is critical.

My biggest concern with WitE was one week turns. I felt some sort of vague loss of control, and wanted a more detailed (with player input) air game.

Please note - the above is not a criticism; just my perspective at the time. 2by three games is at the top of my respect list (along with Henderson Field Designs and several others).

In November, with the upcoming release of WitW, I felt I should make a serious effort to learn the WitE rules (again) and actually play. So - reread them again. My intent was to learn and become reasonably competent with WitE first, then (at some not so distant point) eventually buy WitW.

Alas, my awesome Wife (who is a brainiac, incredibly hard working (makes far more than I), is absolutely honest and loves me - what a deal!) bought WitW for Christmas.

So - being a micro manager I had to read the rules. Note - I am blessed with two weeks off during Christmas; and am thus able to focus on learning the game.

I opened the tutorial scenario (sometimes alternating with a grand campaign - to experiment as I went through the rules) and read the Players Guide first. Gents - a KUDOS to 2by three; the Players Guide basics helped me to better comprehend the rule book.

I am approximately half way through the rule book; am sticking with it because there is so much to learn. I will read a section, then use one of the scenarios to experiment and see if I understand the concepts involved. It goes slowly; but understanding the intricacies of how it all works will only enhance game play; it's all in the details...

As for the Air War - as mentioned by an earlier post, 2by3 has done an exceptional job in realistically replicating the combat intricacies, challenges and frustration faced by both sides in the European Air War.

Supply: the new supply system is, in short, exceptional. Logistics was always a (if not the) determining operational factor during the Second World War. I am very pleased with what the 2by3 Team has implemented to replicate this point.

Rest assured that any concerns I entertained about loss of detail or control (due to one week turns) are gone; WitW is a very detailed game. Let micro managers rejoice...<grin>

In retrospect; while WitW / WitE have one week turns: as I have systematically read and studied the rules, it has become very apparent that every action - especially combat related, is scaled to the amount of movement executed by a unit in a one week turn. So- if a unit consumes most of it's movement points during the turn, there are fewer movement points (currency) to pay for "late week" combat or any other actions - all of which cost movement points. I know that this is very basic - especially to those who have already played either game; but it helped me to understand that a form of "day to day" reckoning was kept through the turn. And when coupled to the player's ability to control how many (or which) days of the week each Air Directive will be executed - it is icing on the cake. Life is good.

In summary: WitW is the next iteration in an outstanding series of games by 2by3. It is clear that the developers have listened to what the players have said (or desire) in the WitE / WitW forums. Not to mentioning systematically improving the dynamics and intricacies of the game engine in every area. 2by3 is to be recognized with some serious, "out of the box" thinking and innovation. WitW's newly implemented Air and Logistics model is a quantum leap in complexity and realism; most definitely a move in the right direction.

During the development of WitE, Joel Billings was asked "why one week turns?" His response, was "because we want to finish the game in our life time".

I will always play WitP AE; it is a thrill to hit "end turn" and see what happens; AE has become a way of life. But, after four or so hours spent on one turn (it used to be closer to seven...); I am ready to take a break (between turns) and play something that moves a little bit faster- before starting my next turn in AE.

Well Done, 2by3.

And:

Moose! My favorite Underwater Moose! I am very pleased that your Moosely presence will be felt on this forum!

Also:

Dereck-

I also served on the USS Midway (1971-1974); we are shipmates. I rarely travel these days; but would seriously contemplate a trip to San Diego to see my Alma Mater.

Mac

[rroberson]

Mac Linehan

Great post and thanks for taking the time. I am slowly but surely plowing my way through the air rules. I usually just pop the game in and go time...but this game...wow...huge...

By the way, Midway [:-] cost me a few extra months at sea that one (she had some engineering problems and my ship (the Ranger) got the call in the 80s.

[Q-Ball]

I am a long-time WITP player as well, and so far I am enjoying it.

Week long turns have an advantage as well: You can finish a game in less than a calendar year!

One other thing you notice, is that the European theater has ALOT MORE air units. On a WITP-AE type system, that would be alot to manage

[rroberson]

Yeah, I played for a few hours last night. I have zero idea what I am doing but it was fun to push units around.

May give it a go as the germans tonite...

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am a long-time WITP player as well, and so far I am enjoying it.

Week long turns have an advantage as well: You can finish a game in less than a calendar year!

One other thing you notice, is that the European theater has ALOT MORE air units. On a WITP-AE type system, that would be alot to manage

I have to disagree about air units in WitP [:)]. Once you hit late '44 on, there are a huge number of planes to manage on both sides. The Allies especially have then coming out of their ears at this point lol.

[JocMeister]

I find the air force in WitW far easier to manage then the late war AE one. I think the devs made a good job of making it manageable despite the massive numbers involved. Will be very interesting to see what they can do with this engine in a couple of years.