British and Commonwealth thread

[Smirfy]

The Wellington

Has the game got the MkIII and X the wrong way round? The mk X had a longer range was lighter with more powerful engine and I imagine cheaper to build since it was made of alloy not steel. I cant imagine the most produce wellington being more expensive to build. Dont think the Mk III or X used waist guns. The bomb load was 4000ib the Mk iii could carry slightly more.

Torpedoes, The Wellingtons in the Med could also be equiped with Torps, Im not sure that weapon is in game.

[Smirfy]

The Hampden

I notice the Hampden has no mines loadout, but this was the go too aircraft for RAF minelaying. It was also used as a long range torpedo bomber

[Smirfy]

Malta

Something I notice in all my games is Malta exerts very little naval interdiction around it compared to every other port in the game. I find this puzzling given that by this stage of the war it was the principle naval base in the MED with subs, mine sweepers MTBs not to mention the blue water stuff. WAD?

[Smirfy]

Churchill NA75

200 hundred of these conversions were done by June 44 in Italy. Basically some bright spark discovered the last thing you wanted to be in as apart of an infantry tank brigade was a Sherman so they took the 75's off the Sherman and mated it with a Churchill turret, these replaced the Shermans in 25th infantry brigade much to their crews relief and were by all accounts a great success.

[Montbrun]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Churchill NA75

200 hundred of these conversions were done by June 44 in Italy. Basically some bright spark discovered the last thing you wanted to be in as apart of an infantry tank brigade was a Sherman so they took the 75's off the Sherman and mated it with a Churchill turret, these replaced the Shermans in 25th infantry brigade much to their crews relief and were by all accounts a great success.

First, I think you mean then 25th Tank Brigade, which was later converted to the 25th Assault Engineer Brigade, RE. It appears that all of the the 75mm-armed Churchills have been lumped together into the Churchill VII.

[Smirfy]

Yeah sorry you are correct 25th tank brigade playing and typing never good. The 25th Engineer Brigade was also equiped with Sherman Crabs and Churchill Crocidiles do they get them eventually?

[Denniss]

The Wellington X was actually heavier than the III by at least 1k pounds. The more powerful engines permitted it to haul 4500 pounds of bombs without sacrifying fuel, the III had to reduce fuel load for this. I actually missed the 4500 somehow which is now fixed. Some more bombs have been added to reflect this.
Will look into the Hampden for mine loadout

[Smirfy]

Thank you. The cost to build would also be worth a look. I think the extra weight must come from the bigger engines because the fuselage would have be definately lighter with the framing being alloy rather than steel.

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Yeah sorry you are correct 25th tank brigade playing and typing never good. The 25th Engineer Brigade was also equiped with Sherman Crabs and Churchill Crocidiles do they get them eventually?

Yes - and an updated insignia.

[Smirfy]

Halifax v Lancaster


Both reliabilty 22 (whatever that means)


Lancaster .16% operational loss rate Halifax .24%


both 23,000ft Both durabilty 58

?

[LiquidSky]

The british did a rather extensive review of the Halifax because they were concerned about the apparent failures.

They discovered that it had nothing to do with the aircraft and more to do with the training of the aircrews.

[decourcy2]

I agree with Smirfy on this; the reliability rates seem fairly arbitrary for many aircraft.

Mosquito B.IV in game has two loadouts, one is 4 500lb bombs, one is 4 500lb bombs and drop tanks. The version carrying drop tanks has less total radius. Is this intended?

Mike

[Smirfy]

I'm quoting the in game stats for the Halifax BII v Lancaster, I believe Harris called sending crews out in the Halifax "pure bloody murder" and took it off operations considered hazardous. This restriction began in September 43 and was lifted in February 44 which coincided with a much improved BIII entering squadron service. That altitude figure is well worth checking out it does seem odd.

So despite the ban and the Lancaster getting the more "dangerous" targets when German night defences were at their zenith

Lancaster loss rate 2.20%
Halifax loss rate 2.28%

[HMSWarspite]

You are right, he did. I think Harris is unjustly scapegoated for the bombing campaign, and lead a huge force through very hard times. On the other hand, he was a bit of a £$%%&* for exaggerating, nay, completely fabricating facts to support his case. I think his decision not not allow heavy bombers as Atlantic patrol aircraft was misguided to put it politely. Also, whilst the HII was less capable than the Lanc, methinks he did protest too much! He was obsessed by bomb load, and loved the Lanc almost to the point of irrationality,and the Stirling had only just left the main force.

Oh yes, and in game the BIII is well in to service by Oct - another instance of BC being too capable too quickly...

Wish there was a Hali still flying!

[Smirfy]

Only if it was. BIII, the BII was the ugliest Merlin engined plane ever. As for Harris, having walked around Lubeck, Hamburg and Berlin to form an opinion for myself, I have to agree with Harris "There are three things you should never put in a well run yacht, a wheelbarrow, an umbrella and a Naval officer". When you are demonstrating in May 42 the war is lost for Germany it's hard to switch to the defensive in the North Atlantic. When your causing the chief of staff of the Luftwaffe to blows his brains out in August 43 your capable. When you have found your "shinning sword" you don't want to be losing crew in a Halifax. if the generals had some of his "faults" perhaps the army might have had a decent tank.

Anyway I think there is a case to put daylight between Lancaster's and Halifax's reliability and surviviability

[Denniss]

Aircraft reliability is strictly related to number of engines and their type, water-cooled engines have a higher rating than air-cooled. Aircraft with known engine problems get some points extra. Higher rating = less reliable = higher maintenance need

Mosquito B.IV issue with small DTs is known but nothing I could fix. In short: drop tanks class elements get too high penalty from the automatic calculation of weapon set effects. In long: their effect is the same weight based calculation as for external bombs; problem is in reality fuel disappears from DTs on the way to target (unlike bombs who only disappear on target).

[Ralzakark]

Merrick’s book on the Halifax gives service ceilings at full loads for the Halifax as 21,000 feet for the B Mk II/V series 1A and 20,000 feet for the B Mk III.

Bomber Command's operational research unit studied the effectiveness of the Halifax compare with the Lancaster (and Mosquito). There findings depended to an extent on what period they studied as the Lancaster had a proportionally heavier bomb load at longer range, but two sets of figures are particularly interesting.

In October 1943, looking back at operations over Germany the preceding summer, losses were as follows:

Aircraft – casualty rate – Bombs dropped per a/c missing
Lancaster – 3.5% – 112.6 tons
Halifax – 5.4% - 45.4 tons
Mosquito – 2.3% - 29.8 tons

In March 1944 the OR section reported to Harris that ‘The Halifax III is sustaining 30% higher loss rate than the Lancaster and having regard to the smaller bomb load of the Halifax the relative usefulness of the two aircraft may be given as 1:2.6’. Information from Wakelam’s excellent The Science of Bombing.

My understanding is that the Halifax had a lower ceiling, though I am struggling to find equally reliable figures for the Lancaster at full load to compare with the Halifax, which put it more at risk of flak. The Halifax was actually more strongly built. Bomber Command noted that a shot down Lancaster would breakup more often than a shot down Halifax, which was partly responsible for the lower survival rate among shot down Lancaster crews (10.9% against 29.4 for the Halifax).

[Denniss]

Halifax III and Lancaster had the same ceiling at max weight, speeds were also similar but their maxspeed alts varied. Lancaster was able to do 270 mph at 20k whereas the Halifax III was slower. I assume the Hali III was about 10-15 mph slower (or more. Lancaster at max weigth is listed to climb to 20k in 42 min, H III in 50 min.

[HMSWarspite]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Only if it was. BIII, the BII was the ugliest Merlin engined plane ever. As for Harris, having walked around Lubeck, Hamburg and Berlin to form an opinion for myself, I have to agree with Harris "There are three things you should never put in a well run yacht, a wheelbarrow, an umbrella and a Naval officer". When you are demonstrating in May 42 the war is lost for Germany it's hard to switch to the defensive in the North Atlantic. When your causing the chief of staff of the Luftwaffe to blows his brains out in August 43 your capable. When you have found your "shinning sword" you don't want to be losing crew in a Halifax. if the generals had some of his "faults" perhaps the army might have had a decent tank.

Bit of an over simplification there. Whatever his logic, the Allies came very close to disaster in 1942 and Harris was no where near winning the war. I am a defender of him, but not all his foibles...

As for the Hali, I am with the 'mostly crew' school. And if you want ugly, it doesnt even make it to the playoffs!

[Smirfy]

I dont know what it is Denniss its either speed or ceiling or they were easier to find at night but as Ralzark's figures tell on operations something went wrong for the Halifax compared to the Lancaster. Great job so far but dont be afraid to give planes a bit of personality.