LiquidSky (WA) vrs DicedT (Ge)

[LiquidSky]

The author of the thread: Does WITW Favor the Germans tm.asp?m=3809224 has challenged me to a game.

Rules are FOW (naturally), and EF box ON. I strongly think the game favours the WA GE and this game will prove one of us wrong.

Currently we are on turn 5 and the island of Sicily is slowly being mopped up with the British 2 hexes from Messina, and the americans adjacent to Palermo and Sciacca.

The bombing vp's are up to 4/turn, and the UBoats are down to -3. Total vps at -49.

I have a few tricks up my sleeve I want to try. And some old ones that I am using...for example my P-47's can reach Essen from the East Coast of England....so bombing Essen is a good way to attrit Axis fighters and save the long range P38's and P51's for UBoat raids.

All in all, it may be a few days before I reach a more interesting turn....

[LiquidSky]

Crap...I put this in the wrong forum...could somebody way smarter then me move this into the AAR forum?

[LiquidSky]

Well..to whet your appetite for the coming campaign I give you.....

Sicily. Yup..its a pretty boring place. Been there, done that....

This is the beginning of Aug 7th.....by the 14th, the entire island was cleared, except for a German division and some Italian waiters holed up in Messina.

[marion61]

What counter mod are you using? Those are much easier for my eyes to see.

[LiquidSky]

Its in the mod section..right at the top under German mod counters in the sticky section. (ewww)

I did change them slightly by 'buttonizing' them with corel paintshop..it gives them a slight 3d look.

[marion61]

I got the one from the mod section. You going to post yours? With the changes? Or just pm me your changes if you don't mind? I really like your counters.

[LiquidSky]

I'm just going to bed and work the next two. I'll have them then. I could 'buttonize' the original if you prefer nato over german symbols

[LiquidSky]

A couple more turns done. Messina falls on the last turn of August, causing the Italians to fold like a wet noodle. A task force is used to exploit this opportunity, and Reggio Calabria falls to the 8th Army thus entering Italy Mainland, with armoured elements racing up the toe to little resistance.
(I know! [:'(] What has Monty been eating? )
As well, the 1st British Airborne drops on Sardinia to assist the valiant but badly armed Italians there. It proves insufficient at taking the port from a German PzGr Regiment. The three eastern most ports are all held by Germans.

The entire Italian garrison of Corsica is up against a lone German regiment holed up in Bastia. Despite outnumbering the Germans probably 10-1 in numbers, the Italians await for western allied reinforcements with chocolate bars.

VP's per turn have been slowly climbing to around 8/turn. The bombing of Essen and surrounding was expanded to include Cologne, and bombing vps are around 12/turn. (I only bomb where my P-47's can escort). At this rate I should reach a positive score by the end of September.

DicedT is using the EF box, but I haven't seen any of the heavies yet. Although I cut off a mountain regiment that may be glad to be PoW's in Italy then fighting Russians in the East.

[LiquidSky]

Sept 25th, 1943...

A historic occasion! Much celebration in HQ as Ike hands out popsicles to his staff.

We have positive vps..I repeat, we have positive vps!





Meanwhile, my easy push up Calabria hit a snag by the name of the 16th Panzer. I did manage to surround and capture a mountain regiment to slow to retreat north.

The Germans are down to 2 ports in Sardinia, and still have the 1 in Corsica...but both are being invested by real British units as the Italians finally call it a day and go home to drink vino.

[Q-Ball]

More of a general question, but maybe specific to this.....when Germans are on Sardinia and Corsica, can't they be isolated fairly easily?

The ports should be easy to bomb by heavies. You may or may not have enough airfields yet to isolate them via Naval Interdiction, but at a minimum I would think you can force the Germans to run some Naval Interdiction, which isn't all a bad thing, as that would expose the German bombers to shoot-downs....

[LiquidSky]

I have him isolated...I just don't have a lot of strength on the island. Using the 1st British airborne and the Airlanding Division to mop up the island with a Task Force to isolate the ports and provide firepower. The Germans aren't going anywhere, and I need time to build up the airfields anyways.

[Seminole]

More of a general question, but maybe specific to this.....when Germans are on Sardinia and Corsica, can't they be isolated fairly easily?

They can be with adequate naval interdiction, but that means using it there and not somewhere else.
Germans can also stockpile a decent amount if they adjust depot priority early on:

Corsica Supply Capacity:
Porto Vecchio: 100k
Ajaccio: 65k
Calvi: 50k
Bastia: 50k
Total: 265k

Sardinia Supply Capacity:
Cagliiari: 85k
Oristano: 50k
Tortoli: 50k
Sassari: 20k
Olbia: 50k
Total: 255k

I'll see how things play out in my Axis games, but I'm leaning toward making the WA fight for those islands. Weeks spent there mean weeks before they can attack somewhere closer to Berlin.

the 1st British Airborne drops on Sardinia to assist the valiant but badly armed Italians there. It proves insufficient at taking the port from a German PzGr Regiment. The three eastern most ports are all held by Germans.
The entire Italian garrison of Corsica is up against a lone German regiment holed up in Bastia. Despite outnumbering the Germans probably 10-1 in numbers, the Italians await for western allied reinforcements with chocolate bars.

I take it from your description he left 90th PzG Div on Sardinia, but didn't reinforce?

[marion61]

I don't use any axis units on the islands, and I keep him occupied till mid Aug. I do build forts in strategic places to slow his advance, but any unit caught on those islands can easily be isolated and made to surrender if you keep the ports at 100%. If you let up on the ports a turn they can evac off.

[LiquidSky]

I would have been happy if he just evac'd off...as it was, I used 2 british divisions to take Sardinia as the last port just fell (Turn 15) I could have taken them much faster with more units, and if he decided to guard the island with even more Germans, I would have used more resources.

As it was, I found it amusing that an attack with 6 Italian units and one British caused a German regiment to surrender. Must have felt good for the Italians to be on the winning side of a battle.

The ankle of the boot is choked with German mtn units....which stops my offensive up the Italian peninsula.

The German Luftwaffe had put in an early appearance in the summer, but after an airfield pasting that destroyed 400 fighters, seems to have vanished. No doubt when I invade, it will raise it's ugly head.

EDIT: The biggest problem about defending Sardinia is when the Italians surrender. Makes it a bit harder to defend....I air transported the 1st British airborne (and could have sent the 82nd airborne as well as the airlanding div) when the Italians gave me an airfield.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

More of a general question, but maybe specific to this.....when Germans are on Sardinia and Corsica, can't they be isolated fairly easily?

They can be with adequate naval interdiction, but that means using it there and not somewhere else.
Germans can also stockpile a decent amount if they adjust depot priority early on:

Corsica Supply Capacity:
Porto Vecchio: 100k
Ajaccio: 65k
Calvi: 50k
Bastia: 50k
Total: 265k

Sardinia Supply Capacity:
Cagliiari: 85k
Oristano: 50k
Tortoli: 50k
Sassari: 20k
Olbia: 50k
Total: 255k

I'll see how things play out in my Axis games, but I'm leaning toward making the WA fight for those islands. Weeks spent there mean weeks before they can attack somewhere closer to Berlin.

the 1st British Airborne drops on Sardinia to assist the valiant but badly armed Italians there. It proves insufficient at taking the port from a German PzGr Regiment. The three eastern most ports are all held by Germans.
The entire Italian garrison of Corsica is up against a lone German regiment holed up in Bastia. Despite outnumbering the Germans probably 10-1 in numbers, the Italians await for western allied reinforcements with chocolate bars.

I take it from your description he left 90th PzG Div on Sardinia, but didn't reinforce?

vs green horns sure that works vs good WA player STUPID move been there done that.

Your Germany so unlike WitE WA can only take what you give them.



but use the grey stuff between the ears

[Seminole]

vs green horns sure that works vs good WA player STUPID move been there done that.

Another opinion is that you did so inadequately.
I believe your overriding consideration was the utilization of units you already expected to be withdrawn (no EF box).

Your Germany so unlike WitE WA can only take what you give them.

I'd rather make them take the islands than simply give them the islands.
I don't expect to hold any of them for the duration, but I think there are opportunities to make it a timely and costly venture WA at a worthwhile cost to the Axis.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

...

I'd rather make them take the islands than simply give them the islands.
I don't expect to hold any of them for the duration, but I think there are opportunities to make it a timely and costly venture WA at a worthwhile cost to the Axis.

what a pity that Pelton is back to his charmless WiTE poster mood [;)]

I think that Sardinia/Corsica are a nice bit to the wider game design. Both players need to make a choice and while the situation basically favours the allies its a good idea to keep some doubt in their minds.

You essentially have to choose:

a) allies make no invasion/axis withdraw = islands for free
b) allies plan an invasion/axis withdraw = islands for free but allied assets diverted
c) allies make no invasion/axis stay = problem in a long delay before Allies can establish airpower on the islands
d) allies plan an invasion/axis stay = allies will take the islands and on balance the Germans will lose some good troops but again imposes a delay before the islands can be used and a diversion of assets.

that sets up an interesting set of choices, especially if the Allies are going to try an early invasion around Rome

[Seminole]

You essentially have to choose:
a) allies make no invasion/axis withdraw = islands for free
b) allies plan an invasion/axis withdraw = islands for free but allied assets diverted
c) allies make no invasion/axis stay = problem in a long delay before Allies can establish airpower on the islands
d) allies plan an invasion/axis stay = allies will take the islands and on balance the Germans will lose some good troops but again imposes a delay before the islands can be used and a diversion of assets.
that sets up an interesting set of choices, especially if the Allies are going to try an early invasion around Rome

I have a minor quibble with 'd' as you've defined it.
The Germans choosing to stay in the Grand Campaign has some interesting possibilities, if they're creative.
I look forward to exploring in more detail as my games get a little farther along.
For the Allies to maintain the historical time line is not an easy feat. You have to really juggle the TFs early for the follow on attacks. A massive Allied commitment of several months duration to clear the islands is a win for Germany - depending on the losses suffered to accomplish it.

[carlkay58]

I have come to the conclusion that Sardinia and Corsica will decide the fate of Rome in 1943 and possibly later. The Allies really need to capture Rome in 43 OR be in position to do so. This means that the Allies have to be able to bypass the typical Biferno - Volturno defensive line to the north of Naples. This line has to be bypassed because there is too far to go through the mountains and great defensive terrain until there are even City VPs to be captured by the Allies. The casualty VP loss to fight through this area is very hard to offset unless you gain the majority of central Italy and into northern Italy. So the Allies must bypass the defensive line by an invasion and/or air drop. This puts the Allies on a very tight 43 schedule in the MTO.

An invasion is most practical on the western side of Italy - it is too mountainous on the eastern side to really exploit or endanger the Axis defensive line. This invasion will not be practical unless the islands of Sardinia and Corsica are in Allied hands - both for the air support from the airfields and the naval interdiction values from the ports. So the islands have to fall to the Allies before the invasion. This tightens up the timetable even more. If the Axis fight for the islands and possibly sacrifice a single German division in Messina, the Allies have some real problems in the time schedule. The Italian troops that become WA in the island upon Italian surrender will not be strong enough to capture them if the Axis garrison stays. The Allies will have to divert troops and resources to taking the islands which is made even harder for the Allies if the Axis garrison the ports with German units. Yes these units will eventually be destroyed. But the staying power and delaying from a single German regiment in each port will cost the Allies a lot of the resources that they need to threaten Rome.

So I side with Seminole in saying that the Allies have a hard time of it if the Axis garrison the islands with a view of slowing the Allies down. It does not take many troops to garrison the ports in Sardinia, Corsica, and Messina. Probably three or four infantry divisions will do the trick. But the amount of time and stress they put on Allied resources is well worth it for the Axis.

[Seminole]

If the Axis fight for the islands and possibly sacrifice a single German division in Messina, the Allies have some real problems in the time schedule.

Messina can't be held for any length of time because of the ability of TFs. When more WA catch on to their use you'll see less worry about port forts.
The defense of Sicily is involved in forcing the WA to fight for each hex to get to Messina.

The Italian troops that become WA in the island upon Italian surrender will not be strong enough to capture them if the Axis garrison stays.

If the German player plays his cards right there won't be any Italian troops on those islands...

The Allies will have to divert troops and resources to taking the islands which is made even harder for the Allies if the Axis garrison the ports with German units. Yes these units will eventually be destroyed. But the staying power and delaying from a single German regiment in each port will cost the Allies a lot of the resources that they need to threaten Rome.

I have a plan to create as much delay as possible, but without writing off the troops involved. I want to let my games get farther along before delving into the details.

So I side with Seminole in saying that the Allies have a hard time of it if the Axis garrison the islands with a view of slowing the Allies down. It does not take many troops to garrison the ports in Sardinia, Corsica, and Messina. Probably three or four infantry divisions will do the trick. But the amount of time and stress they put on Allied resources is well worth it for the Axis.

You don't need to devote a corps worth of infantry divisions to create havoc with the Allied time table. It's a matter of finding the right tools for the job.