Pelton(Axis) vs S2_Tanker Axis Victory Resigned

[Peltonx]

Turn 6 VP’s this turn: -6 Total: -52
Troop ships lost: 29 Cargo: 147

WA's do the standard Sicily invasion T-1 and advance north.

[Peltonx]

But turn 6 they have a full blown invasion turn 6.

Thankfully I have played vs Liquidsky and started recon over England turn 3 and saw that an early Middle Earth invasion was going to hit France.

I loaded up from Holland to Normandy giving him only near Brest as an easy landing spot and he took it. The LW bombers were moved close to Brittany so they are in action the same turn as invasion.

The only thing that again sucks with the rule set is the stupid garrison rules.

Once WA's land Germany has to garrison a bunch of citys the same turn which is just plain stupid as its impossible to do.

But anyways this looks to be a sandbox game, which having lost one I have what I believe is a standard counter for it now.

[marion61]

He might be in trouble with that invasion. His TF sitting next to Brest will be trashed in about 4-6 turns from that fort, and his naval looks weak.

If I'm not mistaken, he used the bug that helped retain 18prep points on his TF's when they moved from the Med on turn one. There's no other way he'd have gotton it off that quickly.

One suggestion. Shrink your naval interdiction area. You only need to isolate the beaches themselves, not the entire area, unless you have other plans I'm not aware of.

[NotOneStepBack]

This is so blatantly wrong, it needs to be fixed.

[carlkay58]

It has been fixed in ver 21 and 23 as far as I know. I think ver 21 is in beta release here.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

It has been fixed in ver 21 and 23 as far as I know. I think ver 21 is in beta release here.

I am running .21 I check and see what he is running

[Seminole]

ORIGINAL: meklore61
If I'm not mistaken, he used the bug that helped retain 18prep points on his TF's when they moved from the Med on turn one. There's no other way he'd have gotton it off that quickly.

Pelton, were the actual landing sites contested?
What did he come ashore with?
Regiments can let you build 20 or more prep a turn. If you think the beachhead is uncontested you'll have time to send in the follow on forces depending on availability of counter attacking forces (are the nearby units static?).

This is so blatantly wrong, it needs to be fixed.

George "Middle Earth" Marshall supported Ike's drawing up Operation Roundup, didn't he?
One thing this should test is to what degree the buildup of cargo and troop ships is required to support a large channel invasion. Also trying to make this work prior to wearing down the LW.

[marion61]

I ran it on the AI today with .23 and no it's not fixed, but I was also told that it probably would take a lot of work to find the problem. I sent them some saves from the AI game I ran. Still have 56prep when you get to England turn 2.

[NotOneStepBack]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

ORIGINAL: meklore61
If I'm not mistaken, he used the bug that helped retain 18prep points on his TF's when they moved from the Med on turn one. There's no other way he'd have gotton it off that quickly.

Pelton, were the actual landing sites contested?
What did he come ashore with?
Regiments can let you build 20 or more prep a turn. If you think the beachhead is uncontested you'll have time to send in the follow on forces depending on availability of counter attacking forces (are the nearby units static?).

This is so blatantly wrong, it needs to be fixed.

George "Middle Earth" Marshall supported Ike's drawing up Operation Roundup, didn't he?
One thing this should test is to what degree the buildup of cargo and troop ships is required to support a large channel invasion. Also trying to make this work prior to wearing down the LW.

Do you really believe an invasion of Brest to be possible in August of 43?? You can cite any hypothetical plans you want, but the fact is in August of '43, the majority of Allied forces were in Sicily and moving on to invade Italy. It would've taken a minimum of several months to just move them all back to England, and then prep an invasion, along with air support. It's just crazy. By the time it would be prepped, and everyone on board politically, it would be winter and they would have to wait until April or May at the earliest anyway.

[Seminole]

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack
Do you really believe an invasion of Brest to be possible in August of 43??

I think the allies lacked will moreso than means. He's not invading with a hypothetical OoB. The open question is whether it is enough to not get thrown back at this point.

You can cite any hypothetical plans you want, but the fact is in August of '43, the majority of Allied forces were in Sicily and moving on to invade Italy.

Look closely at the picture Pelton provided. How many WA divisions do you count in what Pelton called a 'standard invasion' of Sicily? 6-7 infantry divisions is all I can see.
We don't know what actually went ashore, or the OoB committed to the Med since the start of the game. If Pelton was missing some TFs he was smarter to look for them this time in England.

It would've taken a minimum of several months to just move them all back to England,

Does the game actually grossly overestimate the allied sealift in '43? I don't know. Seems to me the same boats they rode from Africa to Sicily they could ride to England. You don't hop into a landing craft in Africa, right?

and then prep an invasion, along with air support. It's just crazy. By the time it would be prepped, and everyone on board politically, it would be winter and they would have to wait until April or May at the earliest anyway.

Why presume they hadn't already planned this since '42? The North African and Sicily campaign to secure the Med then ignore Churchill's ridiculous 'underbelly' argument is really that implausible a scenario?

[NotOneStepBack]

If one were to exclude the airbone drops on June 6, 1944, the D-day invasion was 7 infantry divisions. That's about the same size, maybe a little smaller. You're saying operations on Brest would land nearly the size of D-day in August of '43, after the green light on med operations had already been given? They just switched it up and shuttled in 150,000 men and material?

MAYBE if the game started in '42 it would be feasible since then Tunisia and N. Africa operations were cancelled, but we start in July of '43 and Husky is about to go ahead. What you see up there in the original post if we start on July of '43 is impossible.

[Seminole]

If one were to exclude the airbone drops on June 6, 1944, the D-day invasion was 7 infantry divisions. That's about the same size, maybe a little smaller. You're saying operations on Brest would land nearly the size of D-day in August of '43, after the green light on med operations had already been given? They just switched it up and shuttled in 150,000 men and material?

The Torch landings were over 100k men and they came all the way across the Atlantic from the U.S. or from England.
D-Day saw ~150k men cross, but by the end of June 875k had crossed.
Husky and follow on operations in Italy were curtailed not simply because of the lack of stock, but stock being held back for Overlord.
I think moving 150k men and material from Allied ports in Africa to Allied ports in England is easier than doing so to Italy, even if the distance is a little longer.

MAYBE if the game started in '42 it would be feasible since then Tunisia and N. Africa operations were cancelled, but we start in July of '43 and Husky is about to go ahead. What you see up there in the original post if we start on July of '43 is impossible.

Why is it easier to ship 5th Army into enemy controlled territory in Italy than shipping it to friendly controlled territory in England?
We don't actually know what was committed to this particular Op Husky (perhaps Pelton tracks the OoB his recon IDs and could chip in). Pelton pulled all the Germans, and we don't see any Allied armor. I'm going to guess all of 5th Army was stationed in England.
If you can put it on a boat from Africa to Italy, you can steer that boat to England and get there in less than a month. Why do you contend otherwise?

I don't know how the WA shipping pools compare in '43 to '44, and having not had any time to reduce the LW we could yet find this gambit a failure.
If you have some things you went to get into specifically that you think make any '43 invasion of France 'impossible' maybe that should start another thread?

[Q-Ball]

It's debateable whether the Allies were ready to land in Brittany in August '43 from a military standpoint. I think not.

From a military standpoint, there were valuable lessons learned from Husky that were carried over to D-Day; no way they could have cut straight to D-Day. Para ops are an excellent example, but there are others.

But aside from military considerations, there was no way Churchill would "skip the Med". It's preposterous. And in 1943, the British still had the majority of the ground troops. The Med was far too important to long-term British interests to leave it alone.

[LiquidSky]

For fun I read all the conferences between the allies leading up to the invasion of Sicily...

Basically the Americans really, really, really wanted to invade Europe (meaning Northern France etc.)

The British really really didn't.

After some talk, a compromise....lets invade Sicily....and see what happens. Maybe we will go to Sardinia/Corsica...or invade the Toe..or maybe even Taranto. Maybe.

And that is where the game is starts. The only thing decided on being the invasion of Italy...nothing else.

In Game.....it is rather idiotic to invade anybody half-assed. The Germans can project power anywhere on the continent, and will.

When I hit Netherlands, I landed 12 divisions. With 12 more the next turn. Under cover of 2000 fighters and about 1000 rocket armed FB's

This one is going to get ashore because of a lack of German garrison in the area...but it will not get anywhere, and will probably be thrown back to it's beaches.

[Peltonx]

Turn 7 VP’s this turn: 6 Total: -46
Troop ships lost: 41 Cargo: 175

The LW has control of the shipping lanes.

1st Army will try and push the WA’s back into the sea while 7th Army holds the flanks or easy to defend terrain.

LXXVI Panzer Corp takes one of the 4 tempo port landing hexes and attacks and wins 3 other battles.

[marion61]

You can't halfass your naval ad's. You've got so many planes in England your opponent should have 9's in all those hexes. If he doesn't get it back, he's doomed to becoming a Ring Wraith?[8D]

If it were me, I'd sneak another division into Brest by sea when the other gets worn out, or two divisions. Every attack he makes he weakens himself. Is he dropping supplies by air? I'd hate to be in his shoes right now.

[carlkay58]

Without the prep points travelling with the naval amphibs from the Med you only accumulate 6 prep points/turn in the largest ports for two division stacks. So it takes 9 turns to be able to invade.

Transfer naval amphib on turn 1 - it arrives at sea off of Liverpool at start of turn 2 - move it to a port and stack with infantry. Prep points start to accumulate at the start of turn 3 - turn 11 is the earliest an invasion could go in.

Unless there was a scenario for pre-Sicily (as the May 44 scenario is) there should not be an ETO invasion possible before turn 11. This would give the Axis player time to get paranoid and prepare France for an invasion. It would also tide things over for the Allied change in long term plans.

A scenario that started earlier, or the delay of invasion from the Allies, would make the Axis player be more paranoid about the Allied possibilities - a much more historical situation for the Axis to be in. Axis intel on Allied troops in both North Africa and Britain was notoriously bad, most was based solely on communications intercepts - and that was mostly amount of traffic rather than content due to the codes.

In this situation, Britanny is just far enough away from Britain to curtail the use of the shorter ranged aircraft - so fighter coverage suffers immensely for the RAF air frames. It is a tough place to invade without control of the Channel Islands - I will rarely invade there unless I have the Islands - even against the AI. Doing it that quickly in 43 is going to hurt the Allied chances. In ver 21 he could actually tip things enough to remove the garrison requirements for the Axis for the rest of the game. It should be interesting to see what happens.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: meklore61


If it were me, I'd sneak another division into Brest by sea when the other gets worn out, or two divisions.

I tried that, but hes smart that's why the one TF is sitting next to Brest. You can not ship anything withen 1 hex of a TF, kind of like a ZOC at sea.

Even if he takes Brest I can bomb the port to 100% in 1 or 2 turns with 150 stukas.

[Peltonx]

Turn 8 VP’s this turn: -34 Total: -80
Troop ships lost: 58 Cargo: 198

This is the picture at the start of turn 8. Brest holds out for another turn.

[Peltonx]

Even the Italians are holding their own.