Armor, effective ranges

[Jagger2002]

I just bought RedStorm. I have played the tutorial, read the manual and have a couple questions.

Does the game take into consideration front, flank and top armor? Is the facing of your unit important to ensure your strongest armor faces the most dangerous opponents? If my M1s get caught by fire from the flank, should I expect their survivability to drop substantially?

How do I determine the most effective engagement ranges for various weapons when targeting enemy armor? For example if I have T-72s vs M1s, I assume I must either close the range quickly to penetrate the armor or catch them in the flank by someone. But how close do I need to get before expecting effective penetration?

The tutorial was very intriguing. I think I am going to like this game.

[batteran]

I remember I read in this forum about infantry that they get an advantage, if engaged close to armored units in town, in form of "free" flanck/rear shoots.

So I assume that flanck/rear of armor units is taken into account, but don't know the details.

About effective ranges, you have the max range of differents armaments in the subunit inspector, and the preffered range (preffered standoff) of the unit in the unit details on the right panel of the windows.

You have to take care of the overall visibility (upper rigth panel, "game" tab), the terrain visibility (select an unit, shift-left click on an hex) and the subunits special sensors (infrared, ligth amplifications...) too.

[batteran]

I just noticed something:

That T64BV have a special feature: "Reactive armor Level 3, Top covered"

So, I assume top armor is taken into account too, probably especially usefull again ATGM top hits.

[Tazak]

The game models front and flank armour, however in most instances only the front armour is used (its assumed that vehicles will manoeuvre with frontal armour facing the threat), side armour is only used in FIBUA vs infantry AFAIK.

Effective range is modelled at about 40% of max range for gun systems, I wouldn't worry about individual weapon systems effect ranges but use the subunit inspector it will show each weapon on a unit and its max range, focus more on siting units for overlapping arcs of fire from different locations/units to create killzones. I regularly see NATO tank groups getting tank kills out to around 3.5-4km in this fashion.

The soviet tanks equipped with ATGM can get kills out to 4-5km but are even more deadly when they get close within 2km

[Tazak]

ORIGINAL: batteran

I just noticed something:

That T64BV have a special feature: "Reactive armor Level 3, Top covered"

So, I assume top armor is taken into account too, probably especially usefull again ATGM top hits.

I think so, I've only noticed AGM-114A Hellfire having a TA in specials which I assume is "Top Attack", all other ATGM are PGO='Precision Guided Ordnance' and TW='Tandem Warhead'

[batteran]

I just found that in steam forums:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/330720/di ... ideModal=1

1. Infantry in built up areas recieves a number of benefits versus armor in the form of top and flank shots. That is only helpful if the infantry has a weapon that can hurt tanks. Without a RPG or LAW or some other system guns and MG are about useless. Infantry also get heavy cover bonuses too.

other interressing infos too.

[CapnDarwin]

Just to drop in some a few additions:
1). At ranges of a 1000m or greater, units are considered to be engaged across their frontal armor in most cases. If the unit is surprised, not aware of the attacker until getting hit, there is the chance of flank attacks.

2). As noted above, infantry in cities will flank shot AFVs at 500m and get top/rear shots in hex. Infantry must have an anti-tank weapon to be a threat.

3). Effective range of weapons varies. Tank guns are set to roughly 40% of max range, but this value can shift up or down based on equipment and sensors used on the platform. Artillery and missiles are effective out to max range. Basically, you want NATO units engaging at 3 to 5km where their superior fire control can hit. Once the Soviet tanks get within 2000 meters, it becomes a matter of who shoots first and cover.

4). Reactive armor is considered to have various coverages and certain weapons do have top attack or tandem warhead special abilities that interact in the combat engine.

Hope that helps. Enjoy the game!

[Jagger2002]

Thanks all!

So the frontal armor is the main defense consideration with some possibility of flank hits under 1000m. The SHOW MAX FIRE AREA displays the hexs which can be targeted by the main weapon of a unit. It also displays a number for each hex which can be targeted. The numbers decrease with range. Looking at a line of fire out to max distance of a T-80u, the numbers decrease with range with these values: 82,66,87,73,45,15,15,13. The numbers are reasonably consistent out to 2000 meters, drop by half at 2500m, drop by another third at 3000-4000 meters. There is variability which seems related to visibility but the general trend is there. Interesting to compare those numbers with the T-80U frontal armor of 42. So are those numbers a hit percentage or a total combat factor which is used against the targets frontal armor defense factor?

I am playing my first scenario, Time to Dance, as the Soviets. The Soviet ATGMs are definitely more effective than gun fire at least at a distance. It seems missiles are making most of the kills.

[tombo]

..great discussion. please continue, gives good insight to how combat works.

cheers.

[Tazak]

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002

Thanks all!

So the frontal armor is the main defense consideration with some possibility of flank hits under 1000m. The SHOW MAX FIRE AREA displays the hexs which can be targeted by the main weapon of a unit. It also displays a number for each hex which can be targeted. The numbers decrease with range. Looking at a line of fire out to max distance of a T-80u, the numbers decrease with range with these values: 82,66,87,73,45,15,15,13. The numbers are reasonably consistent out to 2000 meters, drop by half at 2500m, drop by another third at 3000-4000 meters. There is variability which seems related to visibility but the general trend is there. Interesting to compare those numbers with the T-80U frontal armor of 42. So are those numbers a hit percentage or a total combat factor which is used against the targets frontal armor defense factor?

I am playing my first scenario, Time to Dance, as the Soviets. The Soviet ATGMs are definitely more effective than gun fire at least at a distance. It seems missiles are making most of the kills.

Those are hit % numbers I believe, when looking at what can penetrate what tank frontal armour check out the HEAT or AP value of a weapon system, there are some additional behind the scenes numbers that OTS haven't released that relate to reduction in penetration for composite/ERA etc but its a fairly decent rule of thumb "if AP/heat equal or greater than armour - hit it, otherwise get a bigger gun"

Yes watch out for ATGM equipped tanks, they can ruin your day at any range.

[Jagger2002]

what tank frontal armour check out the HEAT or AP value of a weapon system

Ok, that makes sense. So looking again at the T-80u, the main gun has HEAT ammo with 44 penetration and AP Ammo with 38 penetration. While the AT-11 ATGM has 47 Heat penetration. Range probably has no impact on HEAT, as long as it hits, I assume you get full penetration value. Although AP is a different story. I would assume penetration would drop with range?

So comparing the T-80u frontal armor of 42 to its own Ammo values of 44,38 and 47, it could only penetrate the frontal armor of another T80u with HEAT ammo. Is that correct? T-80u using AP would not be able to penetrate its own frontal armor with AP? I need to check the frontal armor of a M-1.

[MaxDamage]

You know what, i ve seen 14.5 mm machineguns take out chieftain mk11 tank. That was when the chieftains didnt see BRDM recon section firing upon them. Some weak spot hits there.

[Tazak]

Don't forget there are 2 types of 'kills' in game:

Hard kill - turret blown off and vehicle in flames type of kill
Soft kill - damaged optics, damaged gun barrel would make the vehicle still usable but not combat effective

So a 14.5mm HMG taking out optics would render a tank combat ineffective i.e. soft kill, while a 125mm DU round will more likely result in a hard kill

AP power is related to effective range, I believe up to effective range is full AP power but then tapers off the further out you get, so a T80U may struggle to get a hard kill beyond its effective range but would easily get a soft kill at most ranges.

HEAT is effective out to max range but is more affected by ERA & composite amours

[Jagger2002]

-----------AP power is related to effective range, I believe up to effective range is full AP power but then tapers off the further out you get, so a T80U may struggle to get a hard kill beyond its effective range but would easily get a soft kill at most ranges. -------

That makes sense. Not much hitting power in AP vs well armored targets but as you say, the AP would still be useful against other softer targets.

So basically armor combat is a two step process. First a percentage chance to hit and second a chance of a hard or soft kill.

And by looking at ShowMaxFireArea, we see hit effectiveness at various ranges. Next we can compare AMMO attack values vs the vehicle frontal armor for possibility of hard/soft kills.

Now I can start working on some tactics.

[Tazak]

I've assumed that engagements are more a case of

Friendly unit A engages enemy unit B

Can A see B (modifiers include weather, crew training & readiness)
can A hit B (modifiers include crew training & readiness, base accuracy of weapon, type of fire control system)
What 'attack power' does A have (modifiers include AP vs range, HEAT, crew training & readiness)
what defense power does B have (modifiers include ERA, ACA)
is unit A attack power higher than defense power of unit B (how much difference dictates soft kill (fallen) or hard kill (destroyed))

I know there a lot more that goes on but this is my simplistic view, don't forgot that even if unit A is 4 tanks, the engine will calculate the above for each vehicle so you may get 3 hits (1 miss) but only 1 soft kill (other 2 bounce or do no damage), we players however will only see the end result of kill(s) or no kill(s)

[MaxDamage]

Hex visibility is confusing. I know for certain that it determines the point at which diffirent kinds of units are spotted considering their hidden 'stealth' stat. First thing that it determines is detection thats for sure i ve tested that.

But does it effect weapon accuracy when firing on a target? or there is no obscurence when you detect something?

[CapnDarwin]

Cover percentage plays a major role in combat determination. The percentage numbers seen in the overlays show the drop in line of sight/spotting. Currently, we don't show hit/kill numbers from calculations.