Attacking Massina

[tiger111]

I`ve tried evertthing- Tac Air and Strategic on ground attack and reinforced the ground unit as much as possible with engineers.

But after 8 weeks still cant take it. The defenders are 16th Pz and 1/PzGren.

Any hints on what/not to do? Thankyou

[marion61]

Messina is a port. You can use Coastal Command to do naval interdiction around them, and place one of your Naval TF's in the ferry hex between Messina and Reggio. This will isolate them. Bomb them using a zero radius bomb run for 7 days, take out the port and rail yard, and hit the men some to give them some fatigue. You'll have Messina in no time. The TF in the ferry hex will probably take some significant damage so once you have Messina, move it.

[Seminole]

place one of your Naval TF's in the ferry hex between Messina and Reggio. This will isolate them.

I must reiterate, I think placing the TFs in the ferry hexes, particularly between two fortified ports, is a bad move. DicedT put one in there for one turn in our game and he told me it took 75% damage in a single week. I had one go to 98% damage in a single week. TFs take a long time to come back (someone mentioned in another thread, but I don't remember the time frame), so you can't really afford to lose one.

TF's will block supply in adjacent hexes too, so you can put them on either side of the ferry hexes, but not adjacent to the ports mentioned (if they finish a turn adjacent to a port they will suffer coastal gunfire), and they can block the flow of supplies. This will not create an isolated condition (which drives down the CV of the cut off units), but that isn't really necessary.

Pressing CTRL+7 will highlight artillery units on the map - note that it highlights the naval TFs. USE those floating artillery parks and they can help knock down fort levels as well as disrupt the enemy before your ground pounders even get in range. Just park them adjacent to the battle taking place on the coast and they'll lend their firepower to the combat resolution automatically. Another thing to keep in mind, if your TFs are supporting temporary ports, or even prepping in your ports, they can still sally out during the turn, participate in combat, and then return to where they started without missing a beat (provided you have sufficient SMP - they won't use the last 30 SMP, so don't get caught out at sea if they're really needed elsewhere.

In reading AARs most of the trouble with coastal forts comes from people not utilizing their naval TFs. I haven't seen a port fort survive more than two weeks if my TFs are supporting the assault.

Lastly, if your TF are not needed elsewhere (e.g. it's a scenario and you're done launching invasions or have all you need maintaining temp ports) a TF parked offshore of an enemy unit will bombard that enemy unit between turns 'for free'. So they can also be used to soften up opposition before your ground pounders even get there.

[marion61]

I have six TF's, this is a scenario right? Not a campaign? Why worry about a TF that I won't be using again anytime soon? Even if it is a campaign game, losing one TF for 8 turns is not game breaking, and how many turns do you need it there? Two at the most? I was explaining how I did it, not how you would do it.

[Seminole]

I have six TF's, this is a scenario right? Not a campaign? Why worry about a TF that I won't be using again anytime soon?

He mentioned spending 8 weeks attacking Messina, so I presume it isn't Husky (7 turns long). In my attempts at BGI with the Allies my TFs are doing something I consider important each turn. Whether it is blocking supplies by sea, fixing ports, or prepping for the next invasion.

Even if it is a campaign game, losing one TF for 8 turns is not game breaking, and how many turns do you need it there? Two at the most? I was explaining how I did it, not how you would do it.

I was explaining what I consider best practices.
Something doesn't have to 'game breaking' to be a bad idea.
I consider losing a TF for two months during the summer of '43 a bad idea.

Furthermore, a single TF will block the flow of supplies through both ferry hexes, but it will NOT cause units in Messina to become isolated for combat purposes(even with naval interdiction blocking port supply).
To isolate the hex would require placing a TF in BOTH ferry hexes. So you have to get two TFs hammered, and if you leave them there for two turns I'd be surprised if either survived.
If the German player puts a fort in Messina the units inside won't suffer isolation effects even if you do decide to place two TFs in the ferry hex.

So I encourage all Allied players to do this against me. Please.

[marion61]

It's called management of resources.[;)] We all have our ways of getting to the same goals. Your way is right for you, got it.

[Seminole]

ORIGINAL: meklore61

It's called management of resources.[;)]

I would call it mismanagement of resources, for the above disclosed reasons. [:'(]

We all have our ways of getting to the same goals. Your way is right for you, got it.

You suggested using a single TF in the ferry hex to isolate Messina, but that actually won't work for anyone. They would need to devote two in order to isolate Messina, and the isolation combat effects can be obviated by spending 4 AP to fortify the port.
Not something immediately obvious to a new player, so I considered it worth clarifying.

[carlkay58]

Note that it requires approximately 20 turns to recover from 98% damage with the Naval Amphib HQ in a size 7+ port while it only takes 12 turns for a destroyed Naval Amphib HQ to return to play.

[marion61]

Have you ever tried to isolate Messina by using one TF? With naval control? Let me show you a pic of how to do it. I put two forts and it wrecked my TF, but if you notice the hex is isolated, and next turn it will be gone. I almost had it this turn. If I had coordinated better with the other corps from the 8th on Sicily, I would have taken Messina and made the units inside it surrender. I did this with very little preparation.

Maybe before you criticize my ideas, you should see if in fact they do work or not?

[Seminole]

Have you ever tried to isolate Messina by using one TF? With naval control?

Yes. Tried it once in a Husky scenario and DicedT tried it on me in our '43 campaign.

Let me show you a pic of how to do it.

I think I see where the confusion comes in.

The manual states: "Neither enemy supply trace nor enemy naval transport can pass through hexes adjacent to an Amphibious HQ unit."

I now think it is not treating the ferry hex as an actual hex in between those two land hexes when making the supply trace.
I believe I had my TF in the other ferry hex. Since I was not blocking supply in both of the land hexes on the eastern side of the ferry as you are in this picture, Messina was not isolated. I think DicedT might have been in that same hex (or else the island was getting supply through another port at the time), I'll have to dig through the screens as I haven't started the AAR.[/quote]

Maybe before you criticize my ideas, you should see if in fact they do work or not?

I wasn't simply speculating, it was a faulty assumption on how the rule works based on my experience thus far.
I actually double checked it this afternoon with naval control by just clicking through a Husky as both sides to isolate Messina by land and insert a TF.
I wanted to confirm my memory was correct about having naval interdiction sufficient to block supply as well.

[stolowski]

I know this topic is 10 years old... but I just started playing WITW and was banging my head against "Operation Husky Introductory scenario", specifically taking Messina by the end of turn 7 (the end of scenario).... I played it a dozen of times, improved various details with each attempt as I learned game mechanics, eventually found this thread and learned about TF... All to no avail as Messina held and the best I could achieve was a draw.

Then I tried playing it with "Easy" difficulty instead of "Normal". And bang, I took Messina on turn 4 with no major problems; on turn 6 I eliminated all remaining axis units in Sicily. Major Allied Victory.

Could it be that this scenario has been designed for "Easy" difficulty in mind? For what that's worth, the WITW Players Handbook explicitly states to start introductory scenario with this difficulty (Starting the Game - Starting the introductory scenario, p.5). Did anyone have success with it and Normal or higher difficulty level? I'd like to understand if I'm still making mistakes in my play, or if it's just the design of this scenario...