Explain to me how H2H point costs are fair

[rbrunsman]

I just spent an hour comparing costs between the US and Germany in H2H and it seems very lopsided in favor of the US.

Examples:
Would you buy an M8 Greyhound for 37 pts or an Sdkfz222 for 42 pts? That answer is obvious, but pick any German Armored Car or Recon AFV and there is no comparison to the value of the M8.

Would you buy an M4A1(76)W Sherman for 100 pts or a PzIVj for 104 pts? Again, a quite obvious choice.

Would you buy an MG42 for 36 pts or a .50cal MG for 31 pts?

How about an M9 Bazooka for 22 pts or a Panzerschrek for 25 pts?

Would you rather have US Airborne squads (12 men) sporting M9 bazookas for 37 pts or Falschirmjaegers squads (10 men) sporting the Panzerfaust 30 for 37 pts.

In June 1941 US snipers are 10 pts and German snipers are 15 pts. The .30cal MG Jeep with 4 front armor costs 16 pts. The German MG Jeep costs 18 pts and has no armor at all. 2-man US recon team costs 6 pts; German = 9 pts. US 4-man Patrol costs 8 pts; German = 15 pts.

Another:
In June of 1941 for 124 pts you can buy ONE Regular German Infantry Platoon (1HQ of 5 men, 4 Squads of 10 men each) or you can buy TWO US Platoons composed of 1 HQ of 5 men and 3 squads of 12 men each) and still have 18 pts left over to buy a .30 cal MG Recon Jeep (with armor of 4 in front)! That works out to 45 Germans against 82 US troops plus a Jeep!!!:eek:

And don't get me started on the HTs... I didn't really compare the tanks but I'm certain the disparity continues.

I really don't understand how H2H is fair.

I've read Goblin's arguments about the cost of units but I didn't realize it was this big of a deal until I started playing H2H. And I play with C&C Off like most people do so please don't just say that with C&C On the Germans really kick ***. That would just mean H2H has to be played with C&C On which I am not inclined to do.

Thanks for helping me out here.

[Orzel Bialy]

as has been pointed out and debated to death in Goblin's thread about this....I guess it all comes down to the desire to try and mimmick "production and availability".
While that is a very novel approach for those who want to portray a campaign in a very historical manner...it is, for the average PBeM player, (who just wants to fight it out)....less than desirable.

[Goblin]

See, I am not a doomsayer!!

A Goblin is honest, hardworking, kind, and helpful....

Shut up, Jess.

You too Orzel.

I just started giving my German opponents 10% points in H2H. I haven't played enought to see if it had balanced it again. Maybe you could try too, and then we will compare notes?

Goblin:)

[Belisarius]

Let us know how it goes, Gob! 10% sounds about fair, in a 5000 point battle, it will give the GE side an additional platoon of tanks. Or a company of infantry. Should balance things nicely.

[Orzel Bialy]

what? Did I say anything???

Jeez, take a "few" pot-shots every "once in a blue moon"...and someone figures you to post smartass remarks all the time.

ps...Bel, it is a good idea. Wonder where Gob's been stealing them from lately? lol :p

[Redleg]

I think more of us could benefit from Goblin's handicap idea.

Heck I used to offer the German 20% just so I could play the Soviet side.

Where does it say that both sides must have exactly the same number of points and that the costs of things should be "fair".

Forget about the default settings and use new settings to construct the battles you want to play.

[Jim1954]

Study history. It's not balanced or fair very often. In order to ensure success, attack where the enemy isn't (and other philosophical sayings).

[rbrunsman]

10% sounds low to me when you look at my example of the use of 124 pts to buy regular infantry. For that extra 12 pts I could buy one recon jeep (without MG). Those jeeps used to be a dime a dozen, now they are so expensive you would never use them.

I'd rather have H2H set up so that you know you have an even match if you have even points. I guess in a 10K battle 10% may be OK, but in a 3-5K battle, 10% is nothing.

One of the first things people ask for in PBEMs is to have rarity turned off, so why did Panzer Leo go to all the trouble to mimic "production and availability" when setting point values? It doesn't seem like something that many players are interested in.

I like the new units H2H offers and the German language is not really that hard to get used to, but I am really discouraged by the point system which is the heart of the game.

I think a "sticky post" with a debate and resolution of what is a fair and balanced handicap setting should be done so that there can be a concensus on this topic. Getting killed and also killing someone because we don't know what a proper point balance is is not very fun gaming.

[mogami]

hi, I don't think comparing numbers tells the whole story.
The experiance level of units is part of their cost.
I'd prefer that IVj at 104 points over the Sherman 76 for 100 (the IVj will score more hits)
If however all units have the same experiance and weapons ratings then they should cost the same.

[Redleg]

I think it would be very easy to adjust a handicap up or down from 10%. It seems to me that about 20% would be workable.

Personally, I think the entire point system is broken beyond repair in SPWAW so I don't think about it very much.

If the main form of battle was not meeting engagements, which seldom occurred, the point differential wouldn't be important. In an advance or assault mission, it is very easy to make these rather minor adjustments while the endless negotiations over artillery, air, landmines are being resolved.

IOW, I believe if more realistic attack scenarios were played, a lot of the point problems would go away.

[VikingNo2]

Lets play a couple straight up you can have the US I'll take the Germans.

Depending on how well I do we can try 10 %


If you look at the Atry, German stuff is cheaper than US now, we all know how arty is very important

[Redleg]

Goodness! Please don't get me started on artillery!

[mogami]

Hi, Sometimes I must chuckle at persons who wish to play the Germans but also want to have "fair" "even" battles.
And on top of that they also want to have their Tigers.

[VikingNo2]

Also, I have noticed that with H2H AT rifles are much more dangerous, Russian and German.

[rbrunsman]

Originally posted by Mogami
hi, I don't think comparing numbers tells the whole story.
The experiance level of units is part of their cost.
I'd prefer that IVj at 104 points over the Sherman 76 for 100 (the IVj will score more hits)
If however all units have the same experiance and weapons ratings then they should cost the same.

The Germans pay more than base cost for their equipment precisely because they are more experienced. Thus, the numbers do tell the whole story IMHO. The actual price you pay on the buy screens should match up as in: Any Main Battle Tank costing 130 pts from any country should be roughly equivalent whether it is due to small gun, heavy armor, great experience; avg gun, avg armor avg experience; or any combination of characteristics you chose to compare. To require new players to understand that the points don't mean what they appear to mean will discourage new players from joining our ranks.

As for the choice between a PzIVj and a Sherman (76)W look at the armor and gun of the (76)W, it is way better than the PzIVj. The only thing better on the IVj is the targeting/rangefinder values of 5/5 for the IVj vs. 4/3 for the (76)W. I don't think that is enough of an advantage to outweigh all the other qualities of the (76)W. But to each his own.

[rbrunsman]

Originally posted by Redleg
If the main form of battle was not meeting engagements, which seldom occurred, the point differential wouldn't be important. In an advance or assault mission, it is very easy to make these rather minor adjustments while the endless negotiations over artillery, air, landmines are being resolved.

IOW, I believe if more realistic attack scenarios were played, a lot of the point problems would go away.

What great leader said, "A battle is won before the first shot is fired." Or something to that effect. That may be true but slaughters don't make for good War Games. Players presumably play to win (or do their best) and have a good time doing it. I, for one, want to have an even chance against an equally qualified opponent. The H2H point system doesn't make this an easy thing to set up. The best battles are hard fought and determined by play (tactics), not historic restrictions/limitatioins. Otherwise why not change the name of MatrixGames to MatrixRecreations (aka "Mostly Boring Battles for the unfortunate sole destined to lose the battle.")

[rbrunsman]

Originally posted by VikingNo2
Lets play a couple straight up you can have the US I'll take the Germans.

Depending on how well I do we can try 10 %


If you look at the Atry, German stuff is cheaper than US now, we all know how arty is very important

Just so everyone is clear, you would have kicked my *** in this battle even if you had given me the 10% point advantage. I am getting a thorough thrashing here. I'm not griping because I'm getting killed. There are no hard feelings about it. You've played well as usual and I've played right into you hands this time.

[rbrunsman]

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, Sometimes I must chuckle at persons who wish to play the Germans but also want to have "fair" "even" battles.
And on top of that they also want to have their Tigers.

You didn't see me complain about the cost of Tigers and Panthers. They are very expensive as they should be. I think you can buy 3 good (using the term loosely) Shermans for the cost of one Tiger. I usually play the Germans by default because I don't care what country I play and usually the year is determined by the US player that wants to get his hands on those M9 Bazookas. I prefer pre-Tiger battles myself.

[rbrunsman]

Originally posted by VikingNo2
Also, I have noticed that with H2H AT rifles are much more dangerous, Russian and German.

Panzerfausts still suck in my short experience. How do the Panzerschreks do?

[VikingNo2]

I don't know I was talking about the Rifle, I can't remember its name( now it in German ) but it can talk out a Geryhound on down