Battle of the Atlantic. Part 2.

[rkr1958]

For me, I think I've found the answer to the question I asked in the (Which CRT to use? or 1D10 vs 2D10? thread [:D] ).

The question I posed was how to fight, or create, the Battle of the Atlantic in MWiF? The answer seems to be play without cruisers in flames. I just finished the Sep/Oct 1940 turn. France fell last turn (Jul/Aug 1940).

In the Atlantic, the axis have managed so far to sink 18 CW CPs and have forced another 11 to abort. While the CW has managed to keep their production at 100%, they won't be able to much longer if they continue to sustain these convoy losses. Also, German air and surface raiders have joined German u-boats in the Bay of Biscay to attack CW shipping there. Last turn alone, the CW lost 12 CPs and saw another 4 CPs aborted there. It's now obvious to me that the CW now needs to move as many convoy routes out of the Bay of Biscay and into the Faeroes gap. This will require some time and 1 more CP per route for routes coming from India, Africa and Australia.

I've also had over the last three turns (i.e., 6 months) colossal naval battles between the RN and RM for control of the Eastern and Western Med. It looks now like the RN has finally gotten the upper hand there and is about to seize total control of the Med. In Egypt, the CW fended off an Italian attempt to take the Suez, the Italians got extremely unlucky on a critical attack. The CW exploited this bad luck and completely destroyed the invading Italians over the remained of the turn.

However, in Cape St Vincent, 5 Italian subs got the upper hand and not only managed to sink a number of CW CPs but were able to sink a CW transport loaded with Alexander's HQ. The previous turns saw the war being fought on land (i.e., France). But this one turn since France fell (i.e., Germany established Vichy) saw the war being fiercely fought at sea.

[brian brian]

The Alexander HQ is a key piece for the CW after the fall of France. It is time to move the convoys out of the Bay of Biscay then, and use the Faeroes Gap. The way to do it is to return a lot of CPs to the UK during the turn, and re-org them with Alexander and the ATR, possibly even a TRS can help out as well, and then re-sail them back out so there is minimal impact on production.

Another important Allied tactic in the Battle of the Atlantic is to maximize pilots for the Commonwealth, and deploy all the NAV-2 they get via the set-up forces. A Wildebeest and a Swordfish both in Gibraltar can lock down the Cape St. Vincent sea area pretty well for a while.

In the Med, the Allies simply have to fight, a lot, all the time. Just because a first round of combat doesn't go well doesn't mean the second one won't. The Royal Navy can afford losses, the Axis can't. That, and the CW should build one FTR-3 on each of the first 3 turns of 1940, and then replace the Beaufighters whenever they are lost. And keep the CW CV-plane pool as empty as possible to replace combat losses on their carriers.


A key Axis move to make a Battle of the Atlantic difficult for the Commonwealth is to not attack the Netherlands with Germany, until Japan is ready to attack the USA...

[Jagdtiger14]

Brian, I like everything you wrote...as for the Netherlands, if the weather turns bad in S/O'39 quickly then I like to do this.

The CW should always build out their NAV's and carrier air.

I never used Alexander like that, but that's a great idea...I'll have to remember that! Don't forget that France begins to send BP's to CW when it begins to fall...that keeps cp's in Biscay sometimes a bit longer.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The Alexander HQ is a key piece for the CW after the fall of France. It is time to move the convoys out of the Bay of Biscay then, and use the Faeroes Gap. The way to do it is to return a lot of CPs to the UK during the turn, and re-org them with Alexander and the ATR, possibly even a TRS can help out as well, and then re-sail them back out so there is minimal impact on production.

Unfortunately for the CW, Alexander is in hospital and will be convalescing for a while after his troop transport was hit and sunk by an Italian sub.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Another important Allied tactic in the Battle of the Atlantic is to maximize pilots for the Commonwealth, and deploy all the NAV-2 they get via the set-up forces. A Wildebeest and a Swordfish both in Gibraltar can lock down the Cape St. Vincent sea area pretty well for a while.

..., and the CW should build one FTR-3 on each of the first 3 turns of 1940, and then replace the Beaufighters whenever they are lost. And keep the CW CV-plane pool as empty as possible to replace combat losses on their carriers.

I see that now... nav's, fighters, carrier planes and pilots are an immediate and constant need for the CW. Some of the best lessons learned are the ones learned the hard way.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

In the Med, the Allies simply have to fight, a lot, all the time. Just because a first round of combat doesn't go well doesn't mean the second one won't. The Royal Navy can afford losses, the Axis can't.

The RN has been hanging tough in the Med and trading blows with the RM. Also, oil is a major inhibitor for the Italians. They only had 1 oil point last turn to reorganize 2.6 oil points worth of units. This along with the RN trading blows with them definitely throttle the Italians. The Germans had to up their trade with Italy to 6 resources, 2 of which are oil. So along with the 1 oil point in trade they get from the Balkans, the Italians are getting 3 oil points per turn.

For me this game plays more historically, at least more to my understanding of history, without cruisers in flames and with oil. I know I've said this at least a dozen times but even with all the mistakes I'm making I'm having a blast playing this game with the rules that I've chosen.

In my humble opinion, MWiF is a MUST for any wargame, especially for those of us who enjoy strategic WW2 games and, triply so for those of us who grew up playing Avalon Hill's 3rd Reich.

[Centuur]

The best defense against SUB's is to have land based air in both the 0 and a high box, together with cruisers. I like to use the "R" class BB's as convoy escorts too, to discourage the SUB's for choosing a surface combat to kill of your cruisers. In sea area's you can't reach, I use the small aircraft carriers (which I will put carrier planes on, even if it's a lousy one, just to be able to call for a naval air combat).

If the CW stick to the "defensive" build plan (Carrier planes, FTR3, NAV, pilots, convoys, repairing ships, HQ's and if there is anything left low cost INF/MIL/GAR), they should be able to cope with it. A build of 2-3 convoy points every turn is an absolute must for the CW. Apart from this, if you play without the light cruisers, start building all cruisers in the force pool, since you need those as extra units. However, the planes stated and convoy points have top priority...

You see far to many players building all kind of "nice" things (such as finishing CV's, building MECH etc.) in early turns of the game. I don't do so. I never build any land unit or air unit other than stated here, before Barbarossa has started. The only nice thing I tend to build is one AMPH, just to make sure our Italian and German friends don't get any ideas of leaving key hexes and islands totally empty of units.

[TeaLeaf]

I find the CW 3-cost FTR indeed very important for the battle of the Atlantic/med.
I also enjoy the (20-range) sunderlands very much. There's virtually no place where the CW can't port-strike with those honeys (if they are not needed for Naval Air missions). Not to mention they are also transport-capable. Constantly building enough CONVs and CVPs seems very wise as well, to replace losses.

In my last 2 MWIF games to 'refresh my WIF-memories', I also thought that breaking the Nazi-Soviet pact wasn't all that difficult for Germany. Maybe Germany was lucky with their average chit value of 2.2 and that of the Soviets being 1.6, but the point is: this has an effect on the Atlantic!
The less Garrison Germany expects to need against Russia, the more units it can keep (air) or build (sub/ship) in the west for the BothA.

As for tactics, I find the key advice for naval battle (found in the player's notes) very useful: always have a bigger/better reaction fleet in reserve than your opponent. Ofc this won't work as well for Germany, but it definately works for the CW. The Eastern med may be an exception to the rule, because if you can cut Italian supply towards Africa (and keep it cut) this may be an early save the day for the CW in Egypt (not much land units needed in Egypt if Italian forces are permanently out of supply). This is why I sometimes finish some more of the CW CV, if the naval battles go well enough. But if you can do this without ships and with aircraft only, even better! 'Limited overseas supply' and 'isolated reorg limits' are optionals that are of great help here.
I select ships for escorting CONVs almost exclusively based on their AA-value. I want the 'battlefleet' (the ships not escorting CONVs) to have the most AA factors possible against Axis NAVs.
Especially in the med. The CW can have >29AA factors there, combined with the French that can add up to >39.

[rkr1958]

I thought I'd post this turn (Sep/Oct 1940) losses and damaged units. The CW lost a 2 TRS during the RTB. I thought I had escorted it well enough but the Germans got lucky on the surprise roll and used 3 points to select that target for a second round of damage, which sunk it. The posted losses also include 12 CW CPs. Thus ends a brutal turn for the CW.

By the way, you can see the Italians took a beating on land in Egypt as mentioned in my original post.

P.S. If I were Winston Churchill, these losses at sea would keep me up at night. But since this is a game I'm sleeping like a baby. [;)]

[Centuur]

Those losses are horrendous for the CW! What is Alexander doing outside of the UK? And two TRS lost? How is that possible? Either the Axis has been very, very lucky on the search die rolls, and the Allies very unlucky (I always say that there weren't any good or bad admirals, only lucky and unlucky ones) or they were put into sea area's without enough air cover and a large enemy fleet waiting for them (no CW TRS sitting in sea boxes in the MED for me if Italy is neutral...).

And the Italian losses are very, very bad too.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Those losses are horrendous for the CW! What is Alexander doing outside of the UK? And two TRS lost? How is that possible? Either the Axis has been very, very lucky on the search die rolls, and the Allies very unlucky (I always say that there weren't any good or bad admirals, only lucky and unlucky ones) or they were put into sea area's without enough air cover and a large enemy fleet waiting for them (no CW TRS sitting in sea boxes in the MED for me if Italy is neutral...).

And the Italian losses are very, very bad too.

The truth is that both the Germans and Italians at sea have been extremely lucky over the last two turn. With that said, I put Alexander on transport at risk. Though, heavily escorted, Italian subs "surprised" the RN with 12 points. They used 3 of them to "select" one target (you got it Alexander and his transport) and 8 or the remaining 9 to increase their attack column. Alexander was headed to Gibraltar and thought he was relatively safe in Cape St. Vincent under heavy escort. But he wasn't. The second CW transport was sunk returning to port under (again) what I thought was adequate protection. The Germans stopped and surprised the CW on a roll of 1. The CW rolled an 8 I believe. The Germans had two damage and one abort. The choose the transport on the first attack and damaged it. They then used 3 surprise points to again choose the target on the second roll. You go it, they choose the transport and again succeeded in the damage roll, sinking the transport.

As lucky as the Italians (and Germans) were at sea, the Italians were unlucky in Egypt. They made a high risk, high gain attack that if successful would have likely given them the Suez. The really only bad roll was a 1, which they rolled. They lost 2 units and the remaining 5 (including Balbo) were disorganized. The CW with modest luck were able to finish off the remaining 3 Italian units.

So while luck definitely played a factor, I as the admiral or general are responsible as I put those forces in the position where bad luck caused their loss.

[rkr1958]

The CW player, that's me by the way, is reeling from playing this game and learning it with cruisers in flames and then playing without that optional rule. It's the next turn (Nov/Dec 1940), the axis won the initiative and are continuing the "Battle of the Atlantic" in full force.

Germany sent their surface raiders and had some modest success in the North Atlantic. They damaged and aborted an RN heavy cruisers and forced 1 CP to abort.

[rkr1958]

The biggest victory for the axis this impulse, however, was in Cape St. Vincent where Italian subs found, surprised and sunk 2 CW CPs. They also forced another 2 to abort. So far, the axis have sunk 20 CW CPs and forced another 14 to abort.

The British Admiralty is scrambling to try to right the ship and stabilize things in the Atlantic. Otherwise, CW war production is at risk.

[rkr1958]

Update. Battle of the Atlantic. Mar/Apr 1941.

Though the CW has stemmed the tide of their initial convoy losses the Battle of the Atlantic still rages on with a vengeance. This turn German u-boats, surface raiders, naval air and Italian submarines attack CW convoys in the Faeroes Gap, Bay of Biscay, Central Atlantic and in the Caribbean. The CW saw 3 more CPs sunk and 2 aborted. To date, the CW has lost 23 CPs and had 15 aborted. Though the CW has managed to keep their production going at full strength their sea supply lines are dangerously stretched. The CW currently only has 82 CPs on the map, of which only 9 are in reserve (i.e., idle). To stress the CW even more, the axis did all this with the Germans having 5 u-boat units in France ready to move out and go convoy hunting in any or a number of sea area just mentioned. Or into other Atlantic sea areas.

The bottom line is I'm finally playing a global war scenario where I'm experiencing a true (really simulated) Battle of the Atlantic.

By the way, I'm finding this game has some much depth to it. While still neutral, the USSR sent out air and sub patrols into the Baltic as a deterred to the Germans.

Also, the axis have taken convoy losses. The Germans lost 2 CPs and had 1 aborted in the Baltic by French subs in Sep/Oct 1939. The Italians have also lost 2 CPs (and 1 aborted) off the Italian coast two turns ago. RN sub groups are still threatening the Italians there this turn.

[rkr1958]

I wanted to add that one effect that I'm seeing from this "Battle of the Atlantic" is that the axis with relatively modest impact to their strategic plans and schedules are forcing the CW to devote the majority of their time and resources into this battle as opposed to building up their forces in North Africa and exploiting the situation in the Med.

[rkr1958]

Update. Battle of the Atlantic. May/June 1941.

It gets even more interesting. The Germans and Italians have combined to put 4 u-boat flotillas and 3 RM Italian sub groups into the Cape St. Vincent Sea area. The CW, in response, has moved all spare CPs and available naval assets to counter that threat. The top half of the graphic shows the situation before the naval battle. The 5 spare CPs are all the spare CPs that the CW has PERIOD! Of the 13 CPs there, 8 are needed.

The battle goes badly for the CW. They see 7 CPs sunk and another 4 aborted before finally fending off the axis sub threat. This means that only 2 of the needed 8 remain.

So far the axis have sunk 33 CW CPs and forced another 21 to abort.

[rkr1958]

The four aborted CPs go to Plymouth were they are reorganized by Alexander in the hopes that the turn will continue long enough from them to make it back to Cape St. Vincent.

By the way, if you didn't notice, Alexander is back from hospital and in command of a newly formed HQ unit.

[rkr1958]

The turn does continue and the CW is able to get those 4 reorganized CPs back out into the Cape St. Vincent Sea area. The CW is able to use 1 of only 2 saved oil points in Great Britain to maintain production at 100%. Though the CW has 29 saved oil points, only 1 now resides in Great Britain.

The situation in the Atlantic is at a critical point for the CW. However, it's rumored that the Germans and Italians may turn their focus to the east. That is, if they can break the pact.

[rkr1958]

I found these stats at: http://www.usmm.org/wsa/shiploss.html

Note the caveat,

"Advance Release: Not for use by Press or Radio Before 7 A.M., EWT, (Eastern War Time) Tuesday, November 28, 1944."

I think I may be in the clear releasing these stats. [:D]

[paulderynck]

That works out to about 111 CPs at 200,0000 tonnes each assuming US losses are in the Grand Total, worse if not.

There have been stories on the forums about as many as 130+ CPs lost in a game of WiF. In my last RAW8 playtest game the CW had 70 out of 140 CW plus CW-minor CPs sunk. But the U.S. only lost a couple.

[rkr1958]

So here are my losses by year through 1941 for the game I'm playing. By the way, my equivalent tonnage by year are losses in 1000's of tons. I used the conversion of 1 CP = 200,000 tons provided to me by Paul in another thread: tm.asp?m=3555406&mpage=18&key=#

I'm not sure what to compare these numbers to exactly in the post above, but this game I'm seeing the Battle of the Atlantic play out. While, Britain's production has suffered (yet), they have had to replace their CP losses and, most importantly, devote most of their actions and focus since the fall of France on protecting their convoys and keeping the vital sea lanes open.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

That works out to about 111 CPs at 200,0000 tonnes each assuming US losses are in the Grand Total, worse if not.

There have been stories on the forums about as many as 130+ CPs lost in a game of WiF. In my last RAW8 playtest game the CW had 70 out of 140 CW plus CW-minor CPs sunk. But the U.S. only lost a couple.

What do you think aborted CPs represent and how do they play into real war statistics?

I don't know if my experience is typical but for every 10 CPs sunk I'm seeing a little less than 7 aborted.