Late war German subs

[alexvand]

I have always struggled with what to do with the subs that Germany has in the late war.

I've always believed in spending a few BPs on subs throughout the game and the occasional Naval, even if the only thing I accomplish is force the CW to take a naval every turn.

But by the late war I often end up with a significant number of subs sitting in Germany and the allies have so many CPs in hand that attacking the convoys is a waste of time. So I often don't even sail them at all and they waste away sitting in port until the end of the game.

I've been playing the Decline and Fall scenario and I think I've come up with a better use for them. (Of course, I only came up with the idea after I got 2/3rds of them sunk!)

First, take a close look at the allied transports in England and the US. Pay attention to their ranges. If your opponent is like me he might put all of the worst transport in the atlantic. Which could mean that many or most of them are range 3. If there are lots of range 3 transports it makes your job a lot easier. You put all your subs in the central Atlantic. If he's got longer range transports, you'll need to spread out more. The subs need to be in a sea zone that is not next to France where they can intercept the transports.

Second, intercept every transport that goes through the sea zone. Do not fight if they have heavy escorts, preserve the subs!

Third, never, ever activate the sea zone and always hide your subs. Even if there is a juicy fat target like a transport with an ARM HQ in the sea zone, don't activate.

Fourth, stay at sea as long as possible. You won't get many naval moves and you need to keep the threat of your subs out there.

The purpose of this is purely to slow the allied transport pipeline of US units down. Not even to sink them. If you get lucky and sink a few but that's a bonus. Keep the threat of your subs alive as long as possible. 3 range transports can sail from the US and end up in the Bay of Biscay to unload troops into France. If you force them to stop in the central atlantic you've just kept all those units out of the action for a turn and halved the total reinforcements the allies can send. Remember that the end game is all about time. A few subs in the right place can force the allies to waste time.


Of course, the allies can counter.

Heavy escorts, but then those escorts aren't providing short bombardment anywhere.

Longer ranger transports, but then those transports aren't racing across the pacific and you've still slowed the allies down on that front.

Of course, I'm probably missing a few things, so feel free to chime in.

[Jagdtiger14]

Love it!

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Well, I generally believe that building subs as Germany is a bad idea. If I want to get active in the BoA (and I'm not crazy about a heavy BoA involvement, it's so much easier for the allies to get air cover over the critical zones than it is for you to get yours, so I generally go for a light leavening), I give BP to Italy so Italy can build subs. Italy's taking a lot of navals and combineds. Me? I want lands and airs so I can break Russia, that's how you win.



If all of his TRS are range 3, why would your opponent go through the Central Atlantic at all? 3 range doesn't have enough to go port to port from the American map to a port in the European map anyway, and besides, it's the North Atlantic, not the Central Atlantic, that's the quick route. The Bay of Biscay is only adjacent to the North, not Central Atlantic.


Lastly, why would your opponents be using 3 range TRS? Assuming you're playing with the Queens (and who doesn't?) the CW can scrap their way down to only 4 range or better TRS, and the U.S. can scrap their way down to 1, and that's assuming you're starting in 1939. From 1944, you can easily do that.


Plus of course, with their relatively low SCS (you're -1 in surface combat per sub) and the necessity of spending surprise points to pick targets if they have so much as a single cruiser escorting, if I'm the allies facing this, I'm just not that scared. I'll send big herds of TRS with 2-3 cruisers as escort and just move through should you manage an intercept.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

I have always struggled with what to do with the subs that Germany has in the late war.

I've always believed in spending a few BPs on subs throughout the game and the occasional Naval, even if the only thing I accomplish is force the CW to take a naval every turn.

But by the late war I often end up with a significant number of subs sitting in Germany and the allies have so many CPs in hand that attacking the convoys is a waste of time. So I often don't even sail them at all and they waste away sitting in port until the end of the game.

I've been playing the Decline and Fall scenario and I think I've come up with a better use for them. (Of course, I only came up with the idea after I got 2/3rds of them sunk!)

First, take a close look at the allied transports in England and the US. Pay attention to their ranges. If your opponent is like me he might put all of the worst transport in the atlantic. Which could mean that many or most of them are range 3. If there are lots of range 3 transports it makes your job a lot easier. You put all your subs in the central Atlantic. If he's got longer range transports, you'll need to spread out more. The subs need to be in a sea zone that is not next to France where they can intercept the transports.

Second, intercept every transport that goes through the sea zone. Do not fight if they have heavy escorts, preserve the subs!

Third, never, ever activate the sea zone and always hide your subs. Even if there is a juicy fat target like a transport with an ARM HQ in the sea zone, don't activate.

Fourth, stay at sea as long as possible. You won't get many naval moves and you need to keep the threat of your subs out there.

The purpose of this is purely to slow the allied transport pipeline of US units down. Not even to sink them. If you get lucky and sink a few but that's a bonus. Keep the threat of your subs alive as long as possible. 3 range transports can sail from the US and end up in the Bay of Biscay to unload troops into France. If you force them to stop in the central atlantic you've just kept all those units out of the action for a turn and halved the total reinforcements the allies can send. Remember that the end game is all about time. A few subs in the right place can force the allies to waste time.


Of course, the allies can counter.

Heavy escorts, but then those escorts aren't providing short bombardment anywhere.

Longer ranger transports, but then those transports aren't racing across the pacific and you've still slowed the allies down on that front.

Of course, I'm probably missing a few things, so feel free to chime in.

So what are the conditions under which you transition to this strategy instead of trying to sink allied convoys?

[alexvand]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Well, I generally believe that building subs as Germany is a bad idea. If I want to get active in the BoA (and I'm not crazy about a heavy BoA involvement, it's so much easier for the allies to get air cover over the critical zones than it is for you to get yours, so I generally go for a light leavening), I give BP to Italy so Italy can build subs. Italy's taking a lot of navals and combineds. Me? I want lands and airs so I can break Russia, that's how you win.



If all of his TRS are range 3, why would your opponent go through the Central Atlantic at all? 3 range doesn't have enough to go port to port from the American map to a port in the European map anyway, and besides, it's the North Atlantic, not the Central Atlantic, that's the quick route. The Bay of Biscay is only adjacent to the North, not Central Atlantic.


Lastly, why would your opponents be using 3 range TRS? Assuming you're playing with the Queens (and who doesn't?) the CW can scrap their way down to only 4 range or better TRS, and the U.S. can scrap their way down to 1, and that's assuming you're starting in 1939. From 1944, you can easily do that.


Plus of course, with their relatively low SCS (you're -1 in surface combat per sub) and the necessity of spending surprise points to pick targets if they have so much as a single cruiser escorting, if I'm the allies facing this, I'm just not that scared. I'll send big herds of TRS with 2-3 cruisers as escort and just move through should you manage an intercept.

Oops, North Atlantic would the correct place!

And you are correct there are counters. I know this would work in the games I'm playing though. I suspect it will depend on the metagame in your game group.

[alexvand]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

So what are the conditions under which you transition to this strategy instead of trying to sink allied convoys?

I found it most useful once the allies had invaded France. I kept using my subs to make the reinforcements from the USA take just a little longer to get to Europe.

So, I guess that would be the condition, once the Allies are in France.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

So what are the conditions under which you transition to this strategy instead of trying to sink allied convoys?

I found it most useful once the allies had invaded France. I kept using my subs to make the reinforcements from the USA take just a little longer to get to Europe.

So, I guess that would be the condition, once the Allies are in France.

I just got a taste of how effective this might be in a game I'm playing. The situation is a bit different but I think the application and effects are the same. Italy is on the ropes. The allies have Tripoli and Rome and are eyeing Naples to get the non-Rome factory in order to satisfy a 3rd condition and knock Italy out of the war. In desperation Italy has split it's remaining naval and sub forces between the Italian Coast and Western Med. It's been a while since the Italians have had any threat in the Med. So, I wanted to move two US corps escorted by two CAs from England to the Italian Coast. But first I had to go through the Bay of Biscay, which had German subs. They tried to intercept but failed. Finally before reaching the Italian Coast they had to go through the Western Med which had two Italian subs and two heavy cruisers there. The Italians successfully intercept and the allies decided to fight through in the 0-box. After 3 rounds of combat only 1 of the 2 TRS made it to the Italian Coast. The second was (only) force to abort to Malta. Both escorting CAs were damaged and forced to abort. This was a small scale epic naval battle and when you though the Italians were surely down for the count they get up and bloody your nose. I just love this game!

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Well, I generally believe that building subs as Germany is a bad idea. If I want to get active in the BoA (and I'm not crazy about a heavy BoA involvement, it's so much easier for the allies to get air cover over the critical zones than it is for you to get yours, so I generally go for a light leavening), I give BP to Italy so Italy can build subs. Italy's taking a lot of navals and combineds. Me? I want lands and airs so I can break Russia, that's how you win.



If all of his TRS are range 3, why would your opponent go through the Central Atlantic at all? 3 range doesn't have enough to go port to port from the American map to a port in the European map anyway, and besides, it's the North Atlantic, not the Central Atlantic, that's the quick route. The Bay of Biscay is only adjacent to the North, not Central Atlantic.


Lastly, why would your opponents be using 3 range TRS? Assuming you're playing with the Queens (and who doesn't?) the CW can scrap their way down to only 4 range or better TRS, and the U.S. can scrap their way down to 1, and that's assuming you're starting in 1939. From 1944, you can easily do that.


Plus of course, with their relatively low SCS (you're -1 in surface combat per sub) and the necessity of spending surprise points to pick targets if they have so much as a single cruiser escorting, if I'm the allies facing this, I'm just not that scared. I'll send big herds of TRS with 2-3 cruisers as escort and just move through should you manage an intercept.

scrap Transporters.. are you crazy.

I never scrap any 3 range transporters. and I could still use more transporters.

when USA is pumping out 10-20 land and air units a turn. you will need all your transporters.

I think I had 9 3 range transporters on the east seaboard. and that was not enough.

[AlbertN]

I am not sure of late game stuff, but in the mid game I found submarines quite nice damage soakers for the surface fleet if they travel together.
Submarines take much less time to be replaced than a cruiser!
And are quite ace for surface raiders movement, when playing with "In the Presence of the Enemy".

In most cases anyhow after 1942 submarines take surface battle when there are only 2-3 cruisers of escort; they can have less punch, but the W.Allies have much less punch than in submarine combat, and you can (with luck) whittle away their escort amount over time.

My main struggle is to take Naval Actions to be honest, more than anything else!
Usually it requires a very crippled Soviet Russia to be able to play naval with Germany.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

I am not sure of late game stuff, but in the mid game I found submarines quite nice damage soakers for the surface fleet if they travel together.
Submarines take much less time to be replaced than a cruiser!
And are quite ace for surface raiders movement, when playing with "In the Presence of the Enemy".

In most cases anyhow after 1942 submarines take surface battle when there are only 2-3 cruisers of escort; they can have less punch, but the W.Allies have much less punch than in submarine combat, and you can (with luck) whittle away their escort amount over time.

My main struggle is to take Naval Actions to be honest, more than anything else!
Usually it requires a very crippled Soviet Russia to be able to play naval with Germany.

I like to take super combined as the Germans.. in late game (if it is going well) you have plenty of aircrafts.

a super combined gives you free air rebase. which can be nice if your armies are still advancing or if you have many air craft that need to rebase to the front.

not something that you should do every turn. but once doing the summer to get your air force in the right place.

and doing a super combined, you can get your submarines at sea and in later turns you can have the Italians start combat in does sea areas.

[Numdydar]

How can Italians use German subs in their turn?

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

He means that in the supercombined, the German subs all move out. Then later in the turn, on their own navals or whatever, an Italian sub moves into the same sea area and initiates a search, which drags in all the Germans as well.

[michaelbaldur]

exactly

[Numdydar]

Boy talk about gamey [:D]. Like that could even happen in RL?

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Boy talk about gamey [:D]. Like that could even happen in RL?

Maybe, but I learned this "tactic" from reading through the, "How to Play" section in volume 1 of the players manual. So my impression is that this is a standard "tactic" among experienced WiF players, which I am NOT.

[alexvand]

Definitely a standard tactic.

In fact, as the Germans you so rarely get naval moves that when the subs do get out to sea you keep them out to and don't RTB at the end of each turn. Then the italians take a naval move and come out each turn and active the sea zones. Or a combined as often a combined is enough for the Italians.

However, late war, the Italians are gone. Thus my strategy above to make use of the moving allied units to activate the sea zones.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Boy talk about gamey [:D]. Like that could even happen in RL?

The Allies get to do it in spades - CW Naval with US invasions and vice versa, FF navy and ATRs providing non-action-using lift, etc, etc, etc.

Let's not begrudge a little German - Italian cooperation here! [;)]

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

I admit, for reasons of historical accuracy, I don't really like this overspecialization WiF tends to encourage when it comes to late game Allied cooperation.

I can just see it, a high level meeting between FDR and Churchill

Well, there you have it old boy. It would be enormously more efficient for one of us to concentrate on tanks, artillery, and infantry, and the other to build all the planes. Want to flip a coin for it? Heads, it's B-17s, tails, it's Shermans!

But then again, short of a radical redesign of the entire action system, I don't know how you'd avoid it. But it certainly encourages some very ahistoric building and operations.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

I admit, for reasons of historical accuracy, I don't really like this overspecialization WiF tends to encourage when it comes to late game Allied cooperation.

I can just see it, a high level meeting between FDR and Churchill

Well, there you have it old boy. It would be enormously more efficient for one of us to concentrate on tanks, artillery, and infantry, and the other to build all the planes. Want to flip a coin for it? Heads, it's B-17s, tails, it's Shermans!

But then again, short of a radical redesign of the entire action system, I don't know how you'd avoid it. But it certainly encourages some very ahistoric building and operations.

Didn't the US provide the Soviets with most of the trucks during the war so that the Soviets could focus on primarily building tanks instead of tanks and trucks?

[brian brian]

It's not really Harry's fault that players on the same side play very cooperatively in some games. The game is designed to produce an individual winner, not a team win.