German Raider Komet

[Footslogger]

I was watching WWII: Behind Closed Doors Ep.1, and learned about the German Raider Komet operating in the Pacific.

I never knew a German Raider ever operated in the Pacific, nor did I know that the Russians at that time were allied
with the Germans.

Which may I say, the documentary is excellent!

Here is one survivor's story of the Komet's victims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QRCuyv4sC4

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

I was watching WWII: Behind Closed Doors Ep.1, and learned about the German Raider Komet operating in the Pacific.

I never knew a German Raider ever operated in the Pacific, nor did I know that the Russians at that time were allied
with the Germans.

Which may I say, the documentary is excellent!

Here is one survivor's story of the Komet's victims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QRCuyv4sC4

Looks like a couple operated in the Pacific at some point.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

I was watching WWII: Behind Closed Doors Ep.1, and learned about the German Raider Komet operating in the Pacific.

I never knew a German Raider ever operated in the Pacific, nor did I know that the Russians at that time were allied
with the Germans.

Which may I say, the documentary is excellent!

Here is one survivor's story of the Komet's victims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QRCuyv4sC4

warspite1

The Soviets helped escort her through treacherous northern waters of the Arctic Ocean to the Pacific. She was the only raider transferred in this way.

Re: Allies. I think that is a little strong!!

The Nazi-Soviet pact, signed in August 1939, was nothing but a marriage of convenience. The Germans needed this because of the unhelpful stance of the Western Allies - who were not going to give Hitler the free hand in the east he craved. For the Soviets it allowed precious time to re-build after the purges of the 30's. Stalin also believed that the Western Allies and the Germans would simply fight themselves to exhaustion and thus leave the Soviet Union in peace - at least until her re-build was complete.

The terms of the pact and its secret protocols were helpful to both, but each had no real illusions as to the likely end game - certainly in the mind of Hitler for whom Lebensraum was his raison d'etre. While the Germans were doing well (which was often in that part of the war) the Soviets were keen to comply with the terms of the pact so as not to provoke Hitler, but during the phoney war, Soviet goods were not delivered quite so promptly.

So allies? Not really.

[Leandros]

Warspite has described the actual situation very well. The Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement was little but a play for the gallery but it gave the Soviets larger
defensive bumper zones in that they occupied the Eastern part of Poland after the German invasion of that country, occupied Baltic States and, through "The
Winter War" improved their defenses towards the West (Finland) and the North (Petsamo) - securing their rail connection to Murmansk. However, this last action
also created a new - if somewhat restrictive - ally for Germany - Finland. The same can be said about the actions on the Soviet-Roumenian border during this
period.

Interesting to note is that, with the recent development in climatic changes, this northern transfer route is getting more and more feasible for civilian as well
as military shipping.


Fred

[warspite1]

Leandros I know you are not Finnish but do live next door [;)]

Do you know of a good, detailed book on the Winter War? I am reading Trotter's The Winter War (which is a good introduction to the campaign - but lacks real detail e.g. OOB) but this has simply whet my appetite for more on the subject.

Thanks in advance.

[LargeSlowTarget]

In the WITP timeframe, the German raiders Thor and Michel operated in the PTO. There were also blockade runners and u-boats. Some mods may have them - my mod surely has

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Leandros I know you are not Finnish but do live next door [;)]

Do you know of a good, detailed book on the Winter War? I am reading Trotter's The Winter War (which is a good introduction to the campaign - but lacks real detail e.g. OOB) but this has simply whet my appetite for more on the subject.

Thanks in advance.

I haven't read too many books covering the Winter War as a whole. My first was Ballantine's Campaign book no. 24 - The Winter War - Russia against Finland. Actually,
it covers it quite well and should be easily available in the UK.

The best book on part of the subject I have read is Colonel Silaasvuo's biography on the "Battle of Suomissalmi". His 27th Jäger Regiment participated in
annihilating two soviet divisions on the Raate Road - the road stretch between Suomissalmi and the Finnish-Soviet border. A fascinating story:

https://www.google.no/search?q=battle+o ... AQ#imgrc=_

Fred

P.S.: This might be of interest, too: http://www.alternativefinland.com/froze ... aate-road/

[m10bob]

While Germany and Russia were not true "allies", nothing prevented Stalin from joining in to "accept" the present of half of Poland which Germany offered..
The Poles had called the entire world for help, and their pleas fell on deaf ears.

This resulted in the "Sitzkrieg" and future distrust of Stalin by the future allied powers.

[warspite1]

To be fair to Stalin (and I have no real wish to be fair to that murdering psycho scumbag) you have to see it from his point of view.

He made a deal with Hitler (involving the dismemberment of a sovereign state) in order to avoid war with Germany - for which his country was not ready.

Chamberlain / Daladier made a deal with Hitler (albeit not directly dismembering a sovereign state (though that was the outcome)) in order to avoid a war with Germany - for which their countries were not ready.

The poor Poles pleas fell on deaf ears - but the relationship between the Soviet Union and Poland meant that there was really no chance of anything else from Stalin.

Let's be honest, in the 30's everyone wanted rid of that bogeyman Hitler. The fear of war was so great and the willingness (understandable) to avoid a repeat of the carnage of WWI so desperate, that whole manner of offers and concessions were made or at least discussed with Germany. We cannot complain that Stalin got there first.

Trouble was, if it was going to come to a fight they all wanted someone else to do the dirty business. And so, as the politicians and dictators jockeyed for position and stalled and talked and did not do very much.... Stalin and Hitler came to an agreement that suited both perfectly. They had the advantage of being able to agree something the democracies could not do of course.

I don't blame the UK and France for what happened leading up to war (they were democratic nations acting for the right reasons in what was an impossible situation) but I think it unfair to blame Stalin for doing what was best for his country given that the Western Allies had made clear they were not taking the Soviet Union seriously.

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

While Germany and Russia were not true "allies", nothing prevented Stalin from joining in to "accept" the present of half of Poland which Germany offered..
The Poles had called the entire world for help, and their pleas fell on deaf ears.

This resulted in the "Sitzkrieg" and future distrust of Stalin by the future allied powers.

This does not seem entirely fair considering the strategic position of Poland at the time... The pleas did not fall on deaf ears but the head attached to the ears was not really in a position to stop the Axis / Soviets....

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

ORIGINAL: m10bob

While Germany and Russia were not true "allies", nothing prevented Stalin from joining in to "accept" the present of half of Poland which Germany offered..
The Poles had called the entire world for help, and their pleas fell on deaf ears.

This resulted in the "Sitzkrieg" and future distrust of Stalin by the future allied powers.

This does not seem entirely fair considering the strategic position of Poland at the time... The pleas did not fall on deaf ears but the head attached to the ears was not really in a position to stop the Axis / Soviets....

warspite1

I wonder how the war would have panned out had Gamelin decided to attack in the west in the first week of war i.e. while Poland was still a fighting force (and as the Poles thought was the agreed plan)?

- The French attack in as much strength as they could muster
- The Germans, presumably, would have had to divert some units from the Polish front to meet the challenge. How many units? What would the effect have been on the Polish Campaign?
- With hindsight of course, we know that the Soviets would invade from the east. This attack would likely finish off the Poles anyway - it would just cost the Soviets more to achieve the result than historically when of course the Germans took the main role in defeating the Poles.
- In such a scenario it would have been tempting for Stalin to hold off attacking Poland so that Germany is fighting on two fronts - and only claim "their half" of Poland, when the time was right.
- German forces would be free to deal with the French
- Big question is how that plays out with French troops potentially well within the western borders and even the Rhineland by then.....

[Chijohnaok2]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

To be fair to Stalin (and I have no real wish to be fair to that murdering psycho scumbag) you have to see it from his point of view.

He made a deal with Hitler (involving the dismemberment of a sovereign state) in order to avoid war with Germany - for which his country was not ready.

Chamberlain / Daladier made a deal with Hitler (albeit not directly dismembering a sovereign state (though that was the outcome)) in order to avoid a war with Germany - for which their countries were not ready.

The poor Poles pleas fell on deaf ears - but the relationship between the Soviet Union and Poland meant that there was really no chance of anything else from Stalin.

Let's be honest, in the 30's everyone wanted rid of that bogeyman Hitler. The fear of war was so great and the willingness (understandable) to avoid a repeat of the carnage of WWI so desperate, that whole manner of offers and concessions were made or at least discussed with Germany. We cannot complain that Stalin got there first.

Trouble was, if it was going to come to a fight they all wanted someone else to do the dirty business. And so, as the politicians and dictators jockeyed for position and stalled and talked and did not do very much.... Stalin and Hitler came to an agreement that suited both perfectly. They had the advantage of being able to agree something the democracies could not do of course.

I don't blame the UK and France for what happened leading up to war (they were democratic nations acting for the right reasons in what was an impossible situation) but I think it unfair to blame Stalin for doing what was best for his country given that the Western Allies had made clear they were not taking the Soviet Union seriously.

Perhaps Stalin was doing what he thought was best for his country by working with the Nazis during the partition of Poland.

That still in no way excuses Stalin for the Katyn Massacre of around 22,000 Poles.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok

ORIGINAL: warspite1

To be fair to Stalin (and I have no real wish to be fair to that murdering psycho scumbag) you have to see it from his point of view.

He made a deal with Hitler (involving the dismemberment of a sovereign state) in order to avoid war with Germany - for which his country was not ready.

Chamberlain / Daladier made a deal with Hitler (albeit not directly dismembering a sovereign state (though that was the outcome)) in order to avoid a war with Germany - for which their countries were not ready.

The poor Poles pleas fell on deaf ears - but the relationship between the Soviet Union and Poland meant that there was really no chance of anything else from Stalin.

Let's be honest, in the 30's everyone wanted rid of that bogeyman Hitler. The fear of war was so great and the willingness (understandable) to avoid a repeat of the carnage of WWI so desperate, that whole manner of offers and concessions were made or at least discussed with Germany. We cannot complain that Stalin got there first.

Trouble was, if it was going to come to a fight they all wanted someone else to do the dirty business. And so, as the politicians and dictators jockeyed for position and stalled and talked and did not do very much.... Stalin and Hitler came to an agreement that suited both perfectly. They had the advantage of being able to agree something the democracies could not do of course.

I don't blame the UK and France for what happened leading up to war (they were democratic nations acting for the right reasons in what was an impossible situation) but I think it unfair to blame Stalin for doing what was best for his country given that the Western Allies had made clear they were not taking the Soviet Union seriously.

Perhaps Stalin was doing what he thought was best for his country by working with the Nazis during the partition of Poland.

That still in no way excuses Stalin for the Katyn Massacre of around 22,000 Poles.

warspite1

Who was excusing Stalin of that?? I would have thought "murdering psycho scumbag" kind of dealt with that...

[Footslogger]

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok

ORIGINAL: warspite1

To be fair to Stalin (and I have no real wish to be fair to that murdering psycho scumbag) you have to see it from his point of view.

He made a deal with Hitler (involving the dismemberment of a sovereign state) in order to avoid war with Germany - for which his country was not ready.

Chamberlain / Daladier made a deal with Hitler (albeit not directly dismembering a sovereign state (though that was the outcome)) in order to avoid a war with Germany - for which their countries were not ready.

The poor Poles pleas fell on deaf ears - but the relationship between the Soviet Union and Poland meant that there was really no chance of anything else from Stalin.

Let's be honest, in the 30's everyone wanted rid of that bogeyman Hitler. The fear of war was so great and the willingness (understandable) to avoid a repeat of the carnage of WWI so desperate, that whole manner of offers and concessions were made or at least discussed with Germany. We cannot complain that Stalin got there first.

Trouble was, if it was going to come to a fight they all wanted someone else to do the dirty business. And so, as the politicians and dictators jockeyed for position and stalled and talked and did not do very much.... Stalin and Hitler came to an agreement that suited both perfectly. They had the advantage of being able to agree something the democracies could not do of course.

I don't blame the UK and France for what happened leading up to war (they were democratic nations acting for the right reasons in what was an impossible situation) but I think it unfair to blame Stalin for doing what was best for his country given that the Western Allies had made clear they were not taking the Soviet Union seriously.

Perhaps Stalin was doing what he thought was best for his country by working with the Nazis during the partition of Poland.

That still in no way excuses Stalin for the Katyn Massacre of around 22,000 Poles.

Funny that you mention the execution of the 22,000 Polish officers.

In the documentary after the Polish officers were killed, members of the high command met with Beria.
They were talking about building a new well equipped and well organized armored division. The Russian generals asked for the
Polish officers to be a part of that armored division. They had not known that those Poles had already been killed and Beria said it was a great mistake.
I wonder what that division would have been like if the Poles were a part of it?

[rustysi]

22,000 Polish officers.

IIRC the number at Katyn was 4500 killed. There were other sites where killings occurred, but I don't remember the total numbers.

I wonder what that division would have been like if the Poles were a part of it?

I'm not so sure many of the Poles would have fought for the Soviets. AFAIK there was no love there either.

[Footslogger]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

22,000 Polish officers.

IIRC the number at Katyn was 4,500 killed. There were other sites where killings occurred, but I don't remember the total numbers.

I wonder what that division would have been like if the Poles were a part of it?

I'm not so sure many of the Poles would have fought for the Soviets. AFAIK there was no love there either.

Oh yes. The Polish officers hated the Russians, but they also hated the Germans too. And yes, Katyn was one of the sites. There were actually 3 sites where they were imprisoned. Many were killed at the prison, but most were killed in the forest. The Kremlin actually had an exact number, just under 22,000. Many of the executioners took their own lives.
However, there were a very few that would collaborate with the Russians, but most did not. One thing Stalin had presumed was that the struggle between Germany and the West would have taken a lot longer than it did. With France capitulating in only 6 weeks, Stalin was shocked. These reports were only available after the Soviet Union collapsed.

If you can, please view: WWII Behind Closed Doors Episode 1 and you will learn what I saw.

[rustysi]

These reports were only available after the Soviet Union collapsed.

Oh yeah, I know I remember reading about Katyn back in the early '80's. The Germans had the Red Cross come in and check the bodies. They were shot with Soviet weapons. It was at that point I was convinced that it was the Soviets that had perpetrated the crime. My reasoning was that the Germans would not have gone to the trouble of using Soviet weapons.

Rusty

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

22,000 Polish officers.

IIRC the number at Katyn was 4500 killed. There were other sites where killings occurred, but I don't remember the total numbers.

I wonder what that division would have been like if the Poles were a part of it?

I'm not so sure many of the Poles would have fought for the Soviets. AFAIK there was no love there either.

warspite1

Gents have a look at information available on the internet regarding Polish personnel that were captured by the Soviets. Everything changed for the Poles after 22nd June 1941 and the Soviets probably realised that Katyn was a mistake. There were two formations raised from these men; the first corps sized unit was ultimately transferred to the west (via Iran) and fought with the British Army, the second (corps sized?) formation fought with the Soviets. As to the willingness of the latter to fight with the Soviets (and against the Government in exile) - I do not know. I suspect some did some didn't.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: rustysi

22,000 Polish officers.

IIRC the number at Katyn was 4500 killed. There were other sites where killings occurred, but I don't remember the total numbers.

I wonder what that division would have been like if the Poles were a part of it?

I'm not so sure many of the Poles would have fought for the Soviets. AFAIK there was no love there either.

warspite1

Gents have a look at information available on the internet regarding Polish personnel that were captured by the Soviets. Everything changed for the Poles after 22nd June 1941 and the Soviets probably realised that Katyn was a mistake. There were two formations raised from these men; the first corps sized unit was ultimately transferred to the west (via Iran) and fought with the British Army, the second (corps sized?) formation fought with the Soviets. As to the willingness of the latter to fight with the Soviets (and against the Government in exile) - I do not know. I suspect some did some didn't.

By the end of the war it was more than a corps sized unit that fought with the Soviets.

The cadre of the officers were Communists who subsequently took leading roles in communist Poland post 1947.

For many the option of liberating their country from the Nazis was sufficient. At the time of formation, the general view in the West and amongst the Poles themselves was that post war Poland would be independent again and not under effective Soviet control. Neither Poland nor Czechoslovakia were communists states immediately after the was. They had "elections first" and several actions were needed before they ultimately were drawn fully into the Soviet bloc.

Where ideology and patriotism did not suffice, the reality of getting better food rations and Soviet treatment than what was the case in the Soviet POW camps, proved to be a very strong incentive.

Alfred

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: rustysi



IIRC the number at Katyn was 4500 killed. There were other sites where killings occurred, but I don't remember the total numbers.



I'm not so sure many of the Poles would have fought for the Soviets. AFAIK there was no love there either.

warspite1

Gents have a look at information available on the internet regarding Polish personnel that were captured by the Soviets. Everything changed for the Poles after 22nd June 1941 and the Soviets probably realised that Katyn was a mistake. There were two formations raised from these men; the first corps sized unit was ultimately transferred to the west (via Iran) and fought with the British Army, the second (corps sized?) formation fought with the Soviets. As to the willingness of the latter to fight with the Soviets (and against the Government in exile) - I do not know. I suspect some did some didn't.

By the end of the war it was more than a corps sized unit that fought with the Soviets.

The cadre of the officers were Communists who subsequently took leading roles in communist Poland post 1947.

For many the option of liberating their country from the Nazis was sufficient. At the time of formation, the general view in the West and amongst the Poles themselves was that post war Poland would be independent again and not under effective Soviet control. Neither Poland nor Czechoslovakia were communists states immediately after the was. They had "elections first" and several actions were needed before they ultimately were drawn fully into the Soviet bloc.

Where ideology and patriotism did not suffice, the reality of getting better food rations and Soviet treatment than what was the case in the Soviet POW camps, proved to be a very strong incentive.

Alfred

warspite1

Indeed so - same as it ever was.....