Combat with Vichy units

[TeaLeaf]

Before rolling for combat results, according to the rules related to 'Combat With Vichy', allied Major Powers that Vichy France is not Hostile to are supposed to roll for each vichy unit to see what Vichy units they are attacking defect (are destroyed) or stay loyal (still need to be fought) prior to combat.

In the save, please take a look at the attack on Dakar. With 6US units, I thought the Vichy terr there should automatically defect.
But nothing happens and the terr needs to be fought.

Is this a bug or am I missing something?

[Cad908]

ORIGINAL: TeaLeaf

Before rolling for combat results, according to the rules related to 'Combat With Vichy', allied Major Powers that Vichy France is not Hostile to are supposed to roll for each vichy unit to see what Vichy units they are attacking defect (are destroyed) or stay loyal (still need to be fought) prior to combat.

In the save, please take a look at the attack on Dakar. With 6US units, I thought the Vichy terr there should automatically defect.
But nothing happens and the terr needs to be fought.

Is this a bug or am I missing something?

I do not think there is a bug here.

Note Rules as Coded:

17.5 Combat with Vichy
If Vichy French land units are involved in a land combat, or are overrun, solely by units controlled by an
Allied major power they are not hostile to, they may defect before combat.

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units)
involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an
(attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay organized.
Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still become disorganized. If it’s an overrun, you just pay
the normal terrain cost, not double.

Subtract 1 from the roll for each Free French or US land unit involved in the combat.

(Below) The unit in Dakar is a Territorial (Senegal). It is controlled by Vichy France but is not a Vichy land unit.

Also, (Second Image) in the Morocco Invasion the Vichy notional is properly resolved.

-Rob

[TeaLeaf]

Thanks for the answer Cad908.
I'm afraid I still think something is off, or I just miss something important:
A while back I had another question that regarded the nationality of notional units and I understood that the notional untis in Philippines are Philippino's, not Americans and those in Malaya are Malaysians, not CW (during the Japanese DOW impulse). Logical and very important, as (for example) Philippino's would be in supply by Manila but Americans would not, in the absence of merchant ships if playing with that rule.

Back to my current save:
Since the Notional in Morocco gets to roll for deflection, this means either Moroccan units = Vichy units, or it isn't a Moroccan unit but a Vichy Unit.
If Moroccan units = Vichy units, then shouldn't Senegalese TERRs also count as Vichy units? And therefore be subjected to deflection?
If this Notional unit isn't a Moroccan unit but Vichy French, then why isnt't it while the Notional in Malaya was Malaysian not CW and the one in Philippines Philippino and not American... My head spins!

[Cad908]

ORIGINAL: TeaLeaf

Thanks for the answer Cad908.
I'm afraid I still think something is off, or I just miss something important:
A while back I had another question that regarded the nationality of notional units and I understood that the notional untis in Philippines are Philippino's, not Americans and those in Malaya are Malaysians, not CW (during the Japanese DOW impulse). Logical and very important, as (for example) Philippino's would be in supply by Manila but Americans would not, in the absence of merchant ships if playing with that rule.

Back to my current save:
Since the Notional in Morocco gets to roll for deflection, this means either Moroccan units = Vichy units, or it isn't a Moroccan unit but a Vichy Unit.
If Moroccan units = Vichy units, then shouldn't Senegalese TERRs also count as Vichy units? And therefore be subjected to deflection?
If this Notional unit isn't a Moroccan unit but Vichy French, then why isnt't it while the Notional in Malaya was Malaysian not CW and the one in Philippines Philippino and not American... My head spins!

My head often spins when trying to decipher World in Flames. [;)]

This is what Rules as Coded says on Territorials:

22.4.5 Territorials (AfA option 10)
Some major powers and minor countries have one or more territorial units available in the force pools from
the start of the game. Territorial units form a new force pool but count against infantry gearing limits.

Territorials are controlled by the major power that controls their home country or territory when they arrive
as reinforcements, even if they were built by a different major power.


Notional's are distinct from Territorials, or that is now I read the rules.

Have been wrong many times before, and there are many more experienced Beta Testers who could provide a determination on this case.

Take care,

-Rob

[paulderynck]

It looks like MWiF is not being consistent on rolling for defection. Minor country units - whether Territorials or not, or even just notionals - are not Vichy units. They are Vichy controlled units.

In the next version of the rules, 17.5 has been changed to read "Vichy controlled units" instead of "Vichy units", which would make it clear that the Senegal unit must roll for defection. But in the rules set MWiF was coded to, only Vichified original French home country units and notionals in Vichy Metropolitan France should roll for defection.

The one exception being per 17.4: "Vichy France can be conquered just like any other major power" and thus you could have a conquered Vichy choosing one of her aligned minors as her new home country, and then that minor's notionals (but still not its real units) would roll for defection. But I doubt that's the case here with Morocco.

[TeaLeaf]

Thanks as well, Paul!
If MWiF currently is indeed being inconsistent about defection of Vichy units as you say, and in the new rules version all 'vichy controlled' units should (and consistently will) roll for defection -so including TERRs and notionals in Vichy controlled minors, I think the new rules will then be working much more as intended, and in spirit of WW2. I have read that English soldiers even wore American uniforms during (some of the operations of) the Torch operation, to make the french defenders more susceptible for defection. I'd feel [:(] if this axis problem could be avoided by just defending Vichy Countries with TERRs.

I'd say, indeed either ALL Vichy Controlled Units should roll for defection (so including TERRs and Notionals), or only Vichy Units (which then should exclude Vichy controlled Notionals, like in Morocco, or other African Vichy Minors).

[michaelbaldur]

creating Vichy and collapsing Vichy have been the biggest headache to code, and there have been bugs there, all the way. and there are still bugs there. had a run though a few weeks ago and found bugs..

not up to date on the current Vichy bugs.