How Badly Will Old Scenarios Be Affected?

[Lobster]

We all know you can't make major changes to a game without breaking some of the old user made scenarios at least a little. How bad will it get?

[shunwick]

All players should be familiar with the scenario editor. It has always been true and will always remain true.

A comprehensive guide to tinkering would be the dog's do-dads.

Best wishes,
Steve

[SMK-at-work]

I am familiar with the scenario editor - familiar enough to know that it requires some dedicated brain work to have a working knowledge of it!

[Meyer1]

I don't think this issue should limit the features of the new game. TOAW IV will come with a set of compatible scenarios, and hey, you could always play the old ones in TOAW III.

[Falcon1]

I'm thinking that the new game won't be so drastically different that the old scenarios will be lost.
May need updating.

The new game did start off as just a patch after all.

We may not even like the new game. Who knows at this point.

[sPzAbt653]

A comprehensive guide to tinkering would be the dog's do-dads.

I've been pondering an Editor Video for some time, but I get lost in thoughts rambling lectures. Maybe if some of you guys could offer some specific concerns I could do something helpful.

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

A comprehensive guide to tinkering would be the dog's do-dads.

I've been pondering an Editor Video for some time, but I get lost in thoughts rambling lectures. Maybe if some of you guys could offer some specific concerns I could do something helpful.

Steve,

The main problems are refreshing old scenarios to get them balanced and the fixing of problems.

One of the downsides of the legacy project, for example, is that the conversions from older TOAWs are purely mechanical and they all come with conversion errors to a greater or lesser extent. Some are nothing more than a quick five minute fix. Others take much, much longer.

It has always been my intention to update all those scenarios for 3.4 (now TOAW IV) but you can appreciate how much work that is for forty-three volumes. At the moment and, realistically, for the foreseeable future, players interested in any of these scenarios are left to their own devices in getting them updated.

What is needed is a kind of strategy guide for revamping a scenario. Not modding a complete overhaul, just fixing problems and rebalancing. The manual is a pretty good start for learning how the editor works but once you have a basic idea of it -where do you go from there? That is the sort of problem that players (particularly new ones) face.

Older scenarios have built in problems not just conversion errors. For example, the way Theater Recon worked changed between TOAW versions. It used to be Theater Recon 20 would set the recon value to 20 and then Theater Recon 30 used to set it to 30.

The way it worked was changed though and it became an additive function. So, Theater Recon 20 would set it to 20 and a later event Theater Recon 30 would make the recon 50. Not what the original designer wanted.

And the biggest practical problem any revamper will face is ...... debugging the event editor.

Best wishes,
Steve

[sPzAbt653]

Hey Steve, thanks for the good info. My usual interest when I open an old scenario is changing unit colors so that they match what I am used to. Most of us don't need to be told how, but beginners would [plus the warning about the 'Withdraw Army Event']. The second thing is changing some unit names, also easy enough but also needs an event warning. Debugging events is a tough thing to do for veterans, so it would be tough to provide an outline for that.

Fixing problems and re-balancing usually takes a good amount of play-testing. Beginners shouldn't be responsible for that, I don't think. [Not that you said they should].

So, so far for an Editor Video for beginners, I've got - The Dump, Changing Unit Colors and Names, and a way to make sure those color and name changes don't screw things up. That's why I was asking for more ideas. I can add the Theater Recon burp, but would like to have a scenario with that issue, if you know of one in particular.

Meanwhile, it seems like the best solution for people with questions or issues is still to post on the forum. That way help can be given for each case.

[Curtis Lemay]

Just looking at the list it's hard to see anything that will break any existing scenario. One possibility is the impact of the new unit limit. If, say, FITE depended upon Soviet units being undividable due to the 2,000 unit limit then they will suddenly all become dividable due to the increase to 10,000.

There is also the impact of the BTS. If a scenario depended upon one side or the other having very short turns then that might work against them.

But the features that should cause most of the impact on existing scenarios were made in 3.4.1.9. Now those might have some unexpected effects. (And, of course, they're included in IV).

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Hey Steve, thanks for the good info. My usual interest when I open an old scenario is changing unit colors so that they match what I am used to. Most of us don't need to be told how, but beginners would [plus the warning about the 'Withdraw Army Event']. The second thing is changing some unit names, also easy enough but also needs an event warning. Debugging events is a tough thing to do for veterans, so it would be tough to provide an outline for that.

Fixing problems and re-balancing usually takes a good amount of play-testing. Beginners shouldn't be responsible for that, I don't think. [Not that you said they should].

So, so far for an Editor Video for beginners, I've got - The Dump, Changing Unit Colors and Names, and a way to make sure those color and name changes don't screw things up. That's why I was asking for more ideas. I can add the Theater Recon burp, but would like to have a scenario with that issue, if you know of one in particular.

Meanwhile, it seems like the best solution for people with questions or issues is still to post on the forum. That way help can be given for each case.

Steve,

For an example of Theater Recon mayhem take a look at Germany 84 in the Classics folder. The offending events are right at the start of the event list.

I would argue with the original Theater 2 Recon value (it seems as though Doug Bevard changed his mind on that value and then forgot to alter other values.

Under TOAW II, which was when the scenario was originally created, the effect of both sides losing their spy satellites was the Soviet's Theater Recon dropped from 90 to 20 and NATO's Theater Recon went up(!) from 10 to 20.

Under COW and later TOAW III the effect is now Soviet Theater Recon goes up to 110 and NATO's to 30.

And that's not a scenario I have dredged up from the deepest depths of pre-history but a scenario that is distributed with the game.

Best wishes,
Steve

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Just looking at the list it's hard to see anything that will break any existing scenario. One possibility is the impact of the new unit limit. If, say, FITE depended upon Soviet units being undividable due to the 2,000 unit limit then they will suddenly all become dividable due to the increase to 10,000.

There is also the impact of the BTS. If a scenario depended upon one side or the other having very short turns then that might work against them.

But the features that should cause most of the impact on existing scenarios were made in 3.4.1.9. Now those might have some unexpected effects. (And, of course, they're included in IV).

Bob,

The scenarios in the Classic Folder badly need refreshing. What is the copyright status on those? I am assuming most the original authors would be a beast to track down for permission to modify. Norm Koger, Doug Bevard, Matt Moyer,Todd Klemme etc..

Best wishes,
Steve

[sPzAbt653]

take a look at Germany 84 in the Classics folder

Thanks Steve, I'll do that.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Just looking at the list it's hard to see anything that will break any existing scenario. One possibility is the impact of the new unit limit. If, say, FITE depended upon Soviet units being undividable due to the 2,000 unit limit then they will suddenly all become dividable due to the increase to 10,000.

There is also the impact of the BTS. If a scenario depended upon one side or the other having very short turns then that might work against them.

But the features that should cause most of the impact on existing scenarios were made in 3.4.1.9. Now those might have some unexpected effects. (And, of course, they're included in IV).

Bob,

The scenarios in the Classic Folder badly need refreshing. What is the copyright status on those? I am assuming most the original authors would be a beast to track down for permission to modify. Norm Koger, Doug Bevard, Matt Moyer,Todd Klemme etc..

Best wishes,
Steve

I don't think there are copyright issues. They sort of sold them to Talonsoft (or were paid to make them). But are they worth fixing?

[sPzAbt653]

But are they worth fixing?

Well, it's nice to have such a huge scenario catalog, but those older scenarios were not designed with all the newer changes. While us older TOAW'ers know what we are getting when we open an older scenario, newer players have no clue.

I've had a harsh thought at times that IV should only include scenarios designed and playtested with IV, or those scenarios that have been 'updated' for IV. Of course, if that happens IV may only have a handful of scenarios. So, I don't envy whomever makes such decisions.

Best course is probably to ship 'em all and let the players sort 'em out !

[JeffroK]

A suggestion would be that the game NOT be sent out half finished, too many offerings have been barely past "beta" stage.

Get it right, first time.

[Falcon1]

Don't include scenarios that are not fully compatible with the new version of the game. The old scenarios are all readily available if people want to take a chance on them as they are or update them.

[76mm]

The old scenarios are all readily available if people want to take a chance on them as they are or update them.

The old scenarios are readily available to current players, but maybe not to new players... As long as the old scenarios are clearly labelled as such and there are no copyright issues, maybe include them with the game? Hopefully the updated editor and event editor will make it easier to revise/update them if people wish to do so.

I think that the main thing is that before buying players understand how many fully-TOAW IV compatible scenarios they are getting, and the "number of scenarios" blurb on the product page doesn't count the old, potentially incompatible scenarios along with the new.

[larryfulkerson]

I've been playtesting the changes I've made to Barbarosa '41 and I'm finding that the BTS system makes game play much
more realistic and therefore the game demands better planning than before. You can't chase units by RBC-ing them across the
map anymore because you lay a carpet of BTS stamps in your path and those slow down any followup forces. Surrounding a
unit before killing it becomes the norm now. Game play has changed with the new version and players are going to find their way
of playing no longer works and will have to make adjustments. So I'm guessing all the older scenario's are going to be effected.

[SMK-at-work]

Interesting little review of BTS - thanks

[Meyer1]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I've been playtesting the changes I've made to Barbarosa '41 and I'm finding that the BTS system makes game play much
more realistic and therefore the game demands better planning than before. You can't chase units by RBC-ing them across the
map anymore because you lay a carpet of BTS stamps in your path and those slow down any followup forces. Surrounding a
unit before killing it becomes the norm now. Game play has changed with the new version and players are going to find their way
of playing no longer works and will have to make adjustments. So I'm guessing all the older scenario's are going to be effected.

It's nice to see the RBC chasing somewhat limited, it was so silly.