The Strato Sweep Mod

[vicberg]

I've heard there's some mod that deals with the bounce bonus. Where is this mod? Can it be integrated into other mods such as DBB or RA?

Have people used it and is it ready for prime time?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

I've heard there's some mod that deals with the bounce bonus. Where is this mod? Can it be integrated into other mods such as DBB or RA?

Have people used it and is it ready for prime time?

AFAIK a mod cannot do that. Somebody interpreted things wrong when they told you that. There are mods to the stock aircraft values that will matter. DBB calibrated the aircraft stats a while back, for one.

[vicberg]

Me confused about something? Na......

Thanks!

[cdnice]

Bounce bonus?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: cdnice

Bounce bonus?

Meaning what, though?

[cdnice]

Sorry, still a rookie, never heard the term, no idea what it is.

[Barb]

There is no mod "limiting the strato-sweeps".
Some mods had aircraft statistics tweaked a little bit, but you can always set your planes to fly at their max ceiling.
The term "strato-sweeps" is tied to sweeps incoming at very high altitude (max ceiling of attacking aircraft) to provide "dive" advantage over scrambling and climbing defenders. "Dive" is quite a powerful tool to get your pilots in advantageous position above the enemy - to dive, fire and climb back against enemy caught below. This situation can emerge whenever one side is above the other. Last time I had encountered this was in a PBEM where 22 Lightnings (sweeping at 30k) killed 11 of 12 Zeroes (CAP at 20k) without single loss.

There are three basic approaches to limit "strato-sweeps":
1) House rules limiting max altitude to some mvr rating on offensive mission (like max 2nd best mvr rating for Nate, Aircobras means 15k, for early Zero, Oscar, P-40s and Hurricanes to 20k, etc..)
2) House rules limiting max altitude to year - like max 20k at 1942, 25k at 1943, 30k at 1944, 35k at 1945....
3) Have couple of good radars at target hex with some really good climbers ... they can detect raid far away and scramble your CAP above incoming raid (at least it will try to do so)... limitations to this are rather poor Japanese radars, poor allied climbers, and max ceiling of the planes...

[cdnice]

Ah, okay, thank you. I was aware of the concept after all, just not the term.

[witpqs]

I and others, including my opponent Andav, are convinced that strato-sweeps are not a problem. There are countermeasures, and to the degree that countermeasures do not always work the plain fact is that at various points in the war and in various situations one side or the other did actually have a big advantage.

[Big B]

What you probably heard about was a mod that eliminates unrealistic high altitude bouncing, and whom ever you got that from was probably referring to my mod.

For the record - the higher altitude advantage 'bounce' bonus exists as part of the game engine - as it should.

What I did was limit all aircraft to a max ceiling of 28,000 feet.
This was done because even though many WWII aircraft could fly above that altitude, 'air combat' seldom - if ever - occurred above that altitude.
Air combat over the Pacific, Mediterranean, Soviet Union, and Europe always occurred at the approximate level that bombers could operate.

The B-17 had the highest effective operational ceiling (with a bomb load) of all WWII bombers, and that was about 24,000 - 25,000 feet.
The reason it didn't operate higher was because above that altitude it was found that oil would not circulate properly, and also icing on the wing and tail surfaces became a major problem, so fighters in the ETO only had to operate at or a bit above that altitude.
In all the other theaters air combat was generally below 20,000 feet (often far less), mainly because that was the operational ceiling of most of the bombers operating in those theaters, therefore fighters in those theaters didn't have to operate much higher.

So the net effect of what I did was to put a reasonable 'cap' on air combat altitude - and a cap that most fighters in the game can achieve. Therefore, no one will be able to unrealistically fly and fight above an altitude that the opposition cannot even reach - ensuring they will always scream down upon them with a 10,000 feet advantage.
In that regard, there is no stratosphere sweep advantage since most everyone can reach the same maximum combat altitude.

However, if one flies missions at 25,000 while the opponent chooses to fly at 15,000 - the game engine will give the same height advantage bonus as usual, but a big factor will always be each aircraft's maneuver rating at the altitude of combat.

Perhaps that answers your question.

B

[Blind Sniper]

Thanks Barb and Big B, pretty detailed answers!

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Big B

What you probably heard about was a mod that eliminates unrealistic high altitude bouncing, and whom ever you got that from was probably referring to my mod.

For the record - the higher altitude advantage 'bounce' bonus exists as part of the game engine - as it should.

What I did was limit all aircraft to a max ceiling of 28,000 feet.
This was done because even though many WWII aircraft could fly above that altitude, 'air combat' seldom - if ever - occurred above that altitude.
Air combat over the Pacific, Mediterranean, Soviet Union, and Europe always occurred at the approximate level that bombers could operate.

The B-17 had the highest effective operational ceiling (with a bomb load) of all WWII bombers, and that was about 24,000 - 25,000 feet.
The reason it didn't operate higher was because above that altitude it was found that oil would not circulate properly, and also icing on the wing and tail surfaces became a major problem, so fighters in the ETO only had to operate at or a bit above that altitude.
In all the other theaters air combat was generally below 20,000 feet (often far less), mainly because that was the operational ceiling of most of the bombers operating in those theaters, therefore fighters in those theaters didn't have to operate much higher.

So the net effect of what I did was to put a reasonable 'cap' on air combat altitude - and a cap that most fighters in the game can achieve. Therefore, no one will be able to unrealistically fly and fight above an altitude that the opposition cannot even reach - ensuring they will always scream down upon them with a 10,000 feet advantage.
In that regard, there is no stratosphere sweep advantage since most everyone can reach the same maximum combat altitude.

However, if one flies missions at 25,000 while the opponent chooses to fly at 15,000 - the game engine will give the same height advantage bonus as usual, but a big factor will always be each aircraft's maneuver rating at the altitude of combat.

Perhaps that answers your question.

B

I believe the B-29 had a higher operational altitude. Though the B-17 was the highest altitude bomber for most of the war. One reason the 8th AF didn't like the B-24 was it's lower max altitude.

Bill

[Erkki]

Some of the unarmed photoreconnaissance aircraft(the ones that actually routinely flew over 28 kft) could be given higher ceiling, to make them more survivable. Some of them were almost immune to interception and AA fire IRL, even if they werent strictly speaking faster than fighters(climbing to intercept and pursuits would take too long time).

[Barb]

Some of the first B-29 bombing missions were flown very high (around 31k), yet the bombers had VERY limited bomb-load (just 2000-4000lbs) - The overheating engines, improper maintenance, humid and hot weather, full fuel load to get to the target far away, etc... this all led to very limited load carried by the planes. This problem was eventually solved by LeMay going low (5-7000ft) at night with heavier loads. And strain on engines could be lowered too as no long climb on full power was needed.

Some planes were required to fly higher and faster (like photo-recon) - they were at least "stripped" variations of the usual planes - removing guns, armor, even a paint helped to create lighter plane that could fly higher then the usual versions.

Yet combat at that altitude was really rare - planes flying at their max altitude would actually start to loose it immediately as they start to maneuver... It was more like "Can I get the few more extra feet? Can I get into the gun range? How can I force him to slow down?"

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Some of the unarmed photoreconnaissance aircraft(the ones that actually routinely flew over 28 kft) could be given higher ceiling, to make them more survivable. Some of them were almost immune to interception and AA fire IRL, even if they werent strictly speaking faster than fighters(climbing to intercept and pursuits would take too long time).

I have pondered that since I decided to limit air combat, so far I haven't seen a real need to change it because of air combat losses in game...but that's always on the back Burner for consideration.

ORIGINAL: Barb

Some of the first B-29 bombing missions were flown very high (around 31k), yet the bombers had VERY limited bomb-load (just 2000-4000lbs) - The overheating engines, improper maintenance, humid and hot weather, full fuel load to get to the target far away, etc... this all led to very limited load carried by the planes. This problem was eventually solved by LeMay going low (5-7000ft) at night with heavier loads. And strain on engines could be lowered too as no long climb on full power was needed.

Some planes were required to fly higher and faster (like photo-recon) - they were at least "stripped" variations of the usual planes - removing guns, armor, even a paint helped to create lighter plane that could fly higher then the usual versions.

Yet combat at that altitude was really rare - planes flying at their max altitude would actually start to loose it immediately as they start to maneuver... It was more like "Can I get the few more extra feet? Can I get into the gun range? How can I force him to slow down?"

This is correct, which is why I wasn't concerned about B-29's with a 28,000 max combat altitude - they mostly flew lower level missions at night, as you pointed out below.
As far as the B-29 having a higher service ceiling than a B-17 - that is not true.
B-29 series bombers had a max service ceiling of about 31,000 to 33,000 feet, whereas the B-17 series had a max service ceiling of about 35,000 to 37,000 feet.
So the B-29 had the same practical altitude limitations as the B-17 did...a bit lower in fact.

B

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

Thanks Barb and Big B, pretty detailed answers!

Well said, Blind Sniper. This helped refresh my memory too.

An excellent discussion, Gents; as always I have learned much.

Mac