China Supply (no Scott)

[John B.]

Hello all,

So, here is the situation in China. As you can see, Scott has broken through in the center due to some unnamed person having three chinese corps march into a sack that had no exit. No need for recriminations here.

In any event, I have seen some supply posts on here and looked at the manual and I'm trying to figure out how well Scott can keep his central thrust in supply. As I figure it, in the supply line I've marked B from his closest base to his lead unit he has minor road (5), hilly jungle (25), and another minor road for (5) for a total of 35 making his supply total 65. As he advances deeper it looks like he will pick up 5 per minor road hex. So, as I understand it, he will likely only be receiving supply 2 or so times per week. Also, as I understand it, the total amount of supplies that he'll be receiving will be reduced even on days when he gets supply. Of course, he is likely but he is moving multiple divisions up there so it's not going to help him too much.

but, how does getting supply to the closest base work. Along supply line A from Nanyang to the closest base it looks like it is major road (1), major road (1) then four minor roads for (20) or a total value of 22. Will the unnamed base get enough supply to then push forward to Scott's spearheads?

finally, the big question, how well will Scott be able to supply this attack across the mountains? Do I have hope of hanging onto Chungking if I'm fully supplied? Or, will he basically be in full supply?

As always, any feedback is greatly appreciated!

[rustysi]

I've been playing as Japan secn1 against the AI. I can't speak to too much here, but I can tell you this, if he's moving supply into China he'll have no problem supplying his troops. At least not around Sian. To the north there the LOC isn't as good and if he's moving heavy forces up that way maybe it'll be a bit of a problem. He'll be able to easily supply on the main road(s) up to Lanchow. That is of course if he's dropping supply to the Chinese ports to the SE, or as I like to do straight to Hankow. Also keep in mind he's generating some local supply from Sian and the two towns to the SE, that is as long as the production centers there are in operation.

You on the other hand have the advantage of terrain, with the woods/rough and mountains. Although I see a number of red exclamation marks. So he may have a time overcoming to terrain and the size of the forces will be a factor but offhand I'd say the advantage lies at this time with your opponent. As for Chungking I'd say it'd depend on forces involves, supply, and whether you can hold the river line. As it is October '42 though I'd say you kept him pretty busy. I've advanced further, but then again I'm playing the AI.

How do you look to the south there? Hanging on to the area around Changsha if you have will at least shut off that flank. Anyway good luck.

[Dragoastro]

One of the HQs (Army I think) can carry/draw a large amount of supply. Of course he can airdrop supply to isolated units. My best guess is that he can invest Chunking with adequate supply if he plans well. Remember that some of the rivers are navigable by ships like xAKL carrying supply. If you have Burma trail supply, you should be able to build up good forts at Chunking, which is a big help.

Good luck,
Drago

[John B.]

@rustysi and Dragoastro.

Thanks for the feedback! Unfortunately the burma trial has been closed for quite some time and I have no doubt that Scott is pouring supply into China. He does seem to be on a bit of an unlimited binge right now with offensives at Viz on the India coast, at the india burma border and hard fighting in the So. Pac. China is my biggest worry since the lack of supply is telling. I'm flying in what I can and am even using PBYs to fly supply directly into Chungking (they use the big river to land). My army is actually not too badly beaten up its the airforce that is the killer so my hope is that he'll be struggling for supply given the poor supply route he has chosen. That and he is now getting into range of land based air from Ledo so I might be able to do at least a little bit of interdicting.

That's why I'm curious about his supply and how much he can sustain over the hills in his current line. Changsha is in ok shape. He merely bombards me there right now to use up my supply.

[GetAssista]

If he builds up Ankang, supply should be ok. I recall Allies AARs getting Burma supplied nicely via built up bases when advancing into Irrawaddy through the jungle. Here the picture is very similar, with dirt roads and only one non-road hex.
I had no problems pulling supplies through the north-eastern route to Chungking using HQs

[John B.]

Getassista,

Thanks. I guess I'll just have to hope he burns lots of supply while he's keeping the forward troops going. I may wind up with Chungking as a redoubt above the river. How far apart do you place your HQ to have them help with the supply draw? Does the 100 rule work for them as well? I may also put some suicide units into the hexes that constitute his supply line. Even if he has units there, it may interfere with his draw until he kicks me out.

[HansBolter]

Haven't read this part of the manual in a long time so I'm going on memory here, but I seem to recall that it is Command HQs that cause additional supply draws to bases beyond what they are set for so Army HQs won't serve this purpose.

In China it's the War Area HQs that will increase supply draw and they need to be in bases to have this effect on the base.

If Alfred was around I am sure his excellent memory would clarify this for all.

But with the Burma road cut there is nowhere to draw this extra supply from.

China does not produce enough supply to support itself.

If the road is cut and you can't ship massive quantities of supply into Rangoon to head up the road you need to start a massive airlift from Ledo to get supply onto the road to pull it further into China.

[GetAssista]

John, I used China Command HQ (+20k supplies drawn) in Kienko to supply ~10 ID assault on Chungking, was surprised at how easy it was to get supplies through all the dirt roads from Sian. Your opponent's situation is a bit more restrictive, but if Ankang is built up and houses command HQ then supplies for Japan assault would be ok methinks. Yes, interdiction of the roads would be painful if you manage to do this

[John B.]

Hans and GettA,

thanks, I really appreciate this advice and assistance.

1. Hans. Unfortunately the burma road has been cut for quite some time and then Scott directed a bombing campaign against Ledo that shut it down for a while. But, now I have B-24s flying supplies to Kienko, PBYs and Catalinas are flying supply into Chungking and I'm using Ledo and the surrounding airfields to fly supplies to Kunming and Tsuying (? just up the main road from Kunming). I think I'm getting about 400 supply per turn into China. He's about to put troops into chungking which may have the effect of shutting that down as a production center, I'm never quite clear about that. I am noticing an uptick in my supply situation which is a very good thing.

2. GettA. He has split his forces into three subgroups with five units heading to Chungking. I have about ten corps there with the CHina HQ and an Army HQ at 100 % planning so I may get some leader assist. I think I'm going to have to fight him to keep him out of Chungking if I can.

I'm about to put a unit on the minor road which will stretch his supply line out some. If we both have units in the hex does that block supply?

[John B.]

Hello all,

I've posted the same pic on my AAR but it is relevant to the china supply issue I've raised so I figured that I would put it here as well. As you can see, Scott burst into the Chungking plain. But, I've not kicked him out of Chungking and away from Kienko and I'm driving to the bridge and to snap the supply jaws shut on his troops near Chengtu. He took heavy losses in the land battles and I noticed that one of the negatives he was facing in the fights was that he was low on supply. So, perhaps trying to supply himself from Ankaing is a bit too far away. And, he has not cleaned up the rear area. I was able to put a Chinese corps on the minor road for a couple of turns and he is at risk in Ankang of a couple of units making it there as well.

His airforce is huge but I think that Chungking et al. are far enough away that his planes are at extended range and thus not as effective.

[John B.]

sorry, that was the wrong picture. Here is the correct (and latest) one.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: John B.

... I'm about to put a unit on the minor road which will stretch his supply line out some. If we both have units in the hex does that block supply?

No.

A very common mistake made by many is to continue to think of AE hexes in traditional terms. Other than for a couple of technical reasons, in AE one should forget about hexes. It is hexsides which count in AE, not the centre of a hex.

A hex which contains units from both sides is fundamentally meaningless for logistically considerations. The first side which arrives at the hex automatically gains control over all 6 internal hexsides. An enemy unit which subsequently arrives turns the hexside through which it entered into it's side's control but the remaining 5 hexsides remain "owned" or "controlled" by the first arriving side.

Supply moves through friendly or neutral "owned/controlled" hexsides. It does not move across enemy "owned/controlled" hexsides.

Alfred

[jwolf]

Even if supply will move through a hexside, will the presence of enemy troops in the hex restrict the flow at all?

[Alfred]

There is no question of whether supply moves through a hexside.  It only moves through a hexside, just as movement of troops is only across a hexside or ships moves across hexsides.
 
If hexside is neutral or controlled oneself, supply moves across.  If the hexside is controlled by the enemy, supply does not across across that hexside.  as my post said, the presence of troops in the middle of the hex is meaningless.
 
Alfred
 
 

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Even if supply will move through a hexside, will the presence of enemy troops in the hex restrict the flow at all?

No it does not. Only the ownership of hex sides matters.

I am not suggesting that is strictly accurate in reflecting all real world situations, that's just how the game engine works. It's more detailed than how it used to work so it is an improvement, but yes a bit of a limitation compared to IRL situations.

I just made this illustration that might help clarify things.

[jwolf]

Thanks for the direct answers, even if not what I want to hear. [;)] I admit that I am used to a different sort of ground model with ZOC restrictions on movement and supply. But the game is what it is.

[John B.]

Alfred and Witpqs, thanks for the info. and the illustration. The system is what it is and it makes sense as an approximation of real life. So, I don't have any complaints. The info. itself is helpful.There is no sense putting some poor suicide unit into a hex if there is already an enemy unit in there. I think that there are some small Chinese corps that just heaved a huge electronic sigh of relief.

I admit that it's still tough to figure out how supply flows from base to base to unit. For example, do supply points built in Chungking to to Kienko the next day, wait a turn there and then get pushed out to units past Kienko the turn after that or will supply points get pushed to their limit during each push phase. And, if Kienko is short of supplies does that act as a road block to supplies it gets getting pushed out until it has its own fill of supplies?

[witpqs]

Following is information that I cut & pasted years ago from a developer post (might have been James, but I am uncertain as I didn't record who or when). Some details might have changed since then and perhaps some were just left out, but it will give you the gist of things. It talks a bit about the different passes that the code goes through, but you don't really need to remember that at all.

This talked about bases getting supply from other bases, but units get supply from bases in almost the same way. A couple of differences that I am aware of: 1) if a unit is in a base it can only get supply from that base and no other base, and 2) unlike when sending supply to other bases, a base will give up all of its supply to units that need it (you will see below how a base must have 'enough' supply before it will send some supply to another base, but when sending supply to units a base will go right down to 0 if units need the supply).

The most important things to remember are the number of times per week a unit or base can get supply from a nearby base. Short range = 4/week, Medium range = 2 per week, and Long range = 1/week, and those are cumulative. That means that when in Short range you get Short (4) + Medium (2) + Long (1) = 7 days per week. At Medium range you get Medium (2) + Long (1) = 3 days per week. At Long range you get Long (1) = 1 day per week.

Remember that some bases have daily supply caps, which is the most supply they can receive from other bases each day. Some daily supply caps are only applied during Monsoon Season (May 15th to October 15th).

Each receiving base that is in range of a base that has excess supplies and needs supplies will get them.

1st. every base that needs 1x requirement gets 1x. So this is one big loop through all bases so as to get maximum coverage and that every base gets at least 1x previously this was 3x only. Sending base will not send any supplies that would dip into its own 3x requirement and if add supply is being used then sending base guards up to 4x.

2nd every base that can get 3x or some portion there of will get it. So this is another big loop to see if we can get bases up to at least 3x requirement. Sending base will not send any supplies that would dip into its own 3x requirement.

3rd. every base that is eligible for excess normally this is big major bases or bases with the highest spoilage limit previously there was no check before sending supplies to small bases. Sending base will not send any supplies that would dip into its own 3x requirement.

4th. One final big loop through all bases to resupply LCUs and whatever base the LCU is at is the only base it can draw supplies from previously there was no restriction. If LCU is in non-base hex or enemy then no restriction. Sending base will guard up to 20 supply points meaning if a unit can be supplied and base has it then unit gets it, previously base had to have above 3x.

In each big loop except for the 4th the amount that can be sent is modified by Prim HQ of base (just like witp) and if present adds an extra 25k to requirement and we check for max draw and we check spoilage limit at base receiving base.

How far a base can receive supplies is determined by tracing a supply cost path starting value used is 100 just like witp. There are three different ranges used throughout each week 89 which is very short range and happens 4 times a week, 49 which is medium range and happens twice a week and 10 which is long range which happens once per week. These values are the minimum required trace value from sending base to receiving base and the trace value must be equal to or greater than this to receive supplies so you may notice that some bases only get supplies 3 times or in some cases once per week.

Using the add supply button means first the base will try and get 1x requirement then during the 3x loop it will try and get 3x whatever is in that field so a base has 1000 normal requirement and I press the add supply to 1000 making new requirement of 2000 thus 1x + 3x = 2000 + 6,000 = 8,000 that the base will try and get.


Short range is trace value of 89 - 100 and is used 4 times per week.
Medium range is trace value 49 - 100 and is used 2 times per week.
Long range is trace value 10 - 100 and is used 1 time per week.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: John B.

Alfred and Witpqs, thanks for the info. and the illustration. The system is what it is and it makes sense as an approximation of real life. So, I don't have any complaints. The info. itself is helpful.There is no sense putting some poor suicide unit into a hex if there is already an enemy unit in there. I think that there are some small Chinese corps that just heaved a huge electronic sigh of relief.

I admit that it's still tough to figure out how supply flows from base to base to unit. For example, do supply points built in Chungking to to Kienko the next day, wait a turn there and then get pushed out to units past Kienko the turn after that or will supply points get pushed to their limit during each push phase. And, if Kienko is short of supplies does that act as a road block to supplies it gets getting pushed out until it has its own fill of supplies?

Your Chinese peasants don't get off so easily.[:)]

There can still be value in moving a Chinese unit into a Japanese occupied hex.

1. The entry hexside becomes Chinese controlled and this can degrade the overall supply path. Assume the enemy is sitting on a hex through which a railway passes and the surrounding non occupied hexes are forest + rough. Enter via the railway hexside and the enemy supply must now travel off railroad via the inferior forest + hex.

2. The one thing which the Chinese Army has is many units. You can send more than one Chinese LCU into the occupied Japanese hex, each LCU entering from a different hex. Again you are degrading the enemy supply path. Plus if you enter from all 6 hexsides you have now surrounded the enemy and cut it off from supply.

3. By entering a Japanese raw material producing hex you stop the raw material production. This will reduce the enemy's industrial production once the local raw material stockpile is fully consumed and importation of the necessary raw materials is not possible.

4. A likely enemy response to such a move will often be to initiate combat. This will up considerably the supply consumption of the enemy unit which may be most inconvenient for the enemy ie using up supplies (which are intended for the frontline)away from the frontline.

I've written at length previously about doing such things in China. They are usually denigrated by people who believe only PBEM players can formulate proper plans. All they demonstrate is their own small minds which consistently fail to devise viable plans.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Following is information that I cut & pasted years ago from a developer post (might have been James, but I am uncertain as I didn't record who or when). Some details might have changed since then and perhaps some were just left out, but it will give you the gist of things. It talks a bit about the different passes that the code goes through, but you don't really need to remember that at all.

This talked about bases getting supply from other bases, but units get supply from bases in almost the same way. A couple of differences that I am aware of: 1) if a unit is in a base it can only get supply from that base and no other base, and 2) unlike when sending supply to other bases, a base will give up all of its supply to units that need it (you will see below how a base must have 'enough' supply before it will send some supply to another base, but when sending supply to units a base will go right down to 0 if units need the supply).

The most important things to remember are the number of times per week a unit or base can get supply from a nearby base. Short range = 4/week, Medium range = 2 per week, and Long range = 1/week, and those are cumulative. That means that when in Short range you get Short (4) + Medium (2) + Long (1) = 7 days per week. At Medium range you get Medium (2) + Long (1) = 3 days per week. At Long range you get Long (1) = 1 day per week.

Remember that some bases have daily supply caps, which is the most supply they can receive from other bases each day. Some daily supply caps are only applied during Monsoon Season (May 15th to October 15th).

Each receiving base that is in range of a base that has excess supplies and needs supplies will get them.

1st. every base that needs 1x requirement gets 1x. So this is one big loop through all bases so as to get maximum coverage and that every base gets at least 1x previously this was 3x only. Sending base will not send any supplies that would dip into its own 3x requirement and if add supply is being used then sending base guards up to 4x.

2nd every base that can get 3x or some portion there of will get it. So this is another big loop to see if we can get bases up to at least 3x requirement. Sending base will not send any supplies that would dip into its own 3x requirement.

3rd. every base that is eligible for excess normally this is big major bases or bases with the highest spoilage limit previously there was no check before sending supplies to small bases. Sending base will not send any supplies that would dip into its own 3x requirement.

4th. One final big loop through all bases to resupply LCUs and whatever base the LCU is at is the only base it can draw supplies from previously there was no restriction. If LCU is in non-base hex or enemy then no restriction. Sending base will guard up to 20 supply points meaning if a unit can be supplied and base has it then unit gets it, previously base had to have above 3x.

In each big loop except for the 4th the amount that can be sent is modified by Prim HQ of base (just like witp) and if present adds an extra 25k to requirement and we check for max draw and we check spoilage limit at base receiving base.

How far a base can receive supplies is determined by tracing a supply cost path starting value used is 100 just like witp. There are three different ranges used throughout each week 89 which is very short range and happens 4 times a week, 49 which is medium range and happens twice a week and 10 which is long range which happens once per week. These values are the minimum required trace value from sending base to receiving base and the trace value must be equal to or greater than this to receive supplies so you may notice that some bases only get supplies 3 times or in some cases once per week.

Using the add supply button means first the base will try and get 1x requirement then during the 3x loop it will try and get 3x whatever is in that field so a base has 1000 normal requirement and I press the add supply to 1000 making new requirement of 2000 thus 1x + 3x = 2000 + 6,000 = 8,000 that the base will try and get.


Short range is trace value of 89 - 100 and is used 4 times per week.
Medium range is trace value 49 - 100 and is used 2 times per week.
Long range is trace value 10 - 100 and is used 1 time per week.

witpqs,

It was indeed posted by James Armstrong aka BigJ62 in January 2010.

Posts #18 and #26 (repeated due to the stubbornness of others not accepting they were wrong) of this thread contain the original.

tm.asp?m=2341909&mpage=1&key=supply&#2345642

The entire thread, and not just what you extracted, should be read by inexperienced players.

Alfred