Trucks!

[Seminole]

It's been recently brought to my attention how critical trucks are to armored formations movement. I had a planned counter attack essentially shelved because I didn't pay attention to the motor pool situation amongst the formations I intended to employ. When the time came two weeks of rest didn't do much for my movement abilities because I simply didn't have the trucks.

So now I'm trying to watch my motor pool (general and specific), as well as get a handle on how trucks are assigned within the logistics system itself. I see the potential for a lot of optimizing by the German player based on creating some more strategically located depots to free up trucks utilized in the interior. Aside from the AP cost, what are the other drawbacks to creating many more depots in the interior?

Can enemy trucks be captured by seizing depots (or are they destroyed? do they retreat? displacement losses?)
Can enemy trucks be captured by capturing units with trucks?

What happens if I have 2k trucks in a depot and I disband that depot? Do those trucks go into the general transit motor pool? Or is it more like when you lift air capable units and they shed their elements that can't be lifted by transferring them to nearby units? If I don't disband and the depot is overrun, do I lose any of those trucks?

Playing my first game with the East Front option since my initial foray into the game, can someone explain the differences I'm seeing in the motor pool, and how if at all I can throttle what trucks go east?

[KWG]

Oh yes the Secrets of the Truck.


" when a depot is captured, most of the freight is destroyed (causing the destruction of some fuel and supplies from the player’s pool), but some small amount of freight is captured resulting in the placing of fuel and supplies in that location for the capturing player’s use. In addition, a small number of vehicles are destroyed and the rest are returned to the pool."

So I think most Trucks "get the hell outa Dodge" before being captured

I think I asked before about the east front trucks and I believe there is no control by the player, its for info purposes.

As Axis is seems that more depots the better(to a point maybe) near the front and certain places in the interior. I built depots around the Rhur to siphon supplies.

And looking at my notes Fall 44 MP: 126k/129k(29k)

It seems closed airbases take forever to send supplies and fuel back. I want to get a truck and go get the stuff myself. And units sitting on top of a mountain of supplies/fuel in a closed depot will still pull from a futher away depot.

[Seminole]

One thing I'd LOVE to see is some reference to trucks/need - either in the Commanders Report, or even on the unit picture in the right hand pane (akin to ammo, etc.).

Would help in figuring out which more quickly which armored units can get close to max MP and which ones are burnt out.
This truck/MP issue is going to be a real big deal on the East Front. I wish I had a way to force trucks into units, because refit sitting on a depot doesn't seem to do much. I'd gladly sacrifice my overall supply ability to focus vehicles where I feel they're most needed.

German player has to be very careful about getting armored units more than 3 hexes from a depot. When a unit's organic vehicles get used for supply it seems to take ages to get them back.

[LiquidSky]

You mean this?

[Seminole]

Yes. I would like to be able to look at units truck status with a soft factor, a column in the CR (to get a picture of all my armor/mech at once and sort who needs trucks and who doesn't - of all options this would be the nicest, but I realize its very crowded right now), or to see it without so many clicks by showing it in the right hand pane when a unit is selected.

"The engine of the Panzer is a weapon just as the main-gun." - Guderian

With the restrictions that the truck TOE% puts on armored movement I care more about how many trucks are in my armored/mech units than I do how many AFVs they have...

[KWG]

Bigger numbers, smaller truck

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Seminole
"The engine of the Panzer is a weapon just as the main-gun." - Guderian

With the restrictions that the truck TOE% puts on armored movement I care more about how many trucks are in my armored/mech units than I do how many AFVs they have...

As German player you need to set up depots LONG before the Allies invade so supplies are not an issue even
under 7-9 interdiction for months.

You know basicly the best landing spots in France so place depots so no units will be more then 3 hexes away and then 2nd and 3rd layers. You also position units 1 hex off the beaches and then in the best defensive spots and have panzer reserves close to beaches from Netherlands to Normandy.


Same goes for Italy. You be stopping them just south of Rome and the landing areas are Anzio to northern Italian zone.
You simply put depots along these areas so no division will be more then 3 hexes away, then a 2nd layer a few hexes up the boot.

All Armys and depots are at L-2 other then the panzer reserve Corps that are at L-4.

Once Allies hit the beaches you only have to move reserves up once and your done. No matter where they land you got depots alrdy full of ammo and supplies which generally last long enough until you get some bad weather and they quickly fill up if you turn all others to 1 and the front line ones to 4 same for units.

The Panzer ToE will be HUGE for mobile warfare on Eastern Front, its basicly what I have been doing for yrs with AGS.

It will be more of a risk with 2.0, but the possible pay off is huge. I have tested it out with allies and seems to work better then I expected.

The current engine makes defending very easy if you have the time to set things up and under stand how the logistics system works or how they think it should work.

[RedLancer]

I've raised with Joel and Gary a couple of times whether we need to control the maximum number of trucks that a depot can have. I'm sure you've often seen a depot with thousands of trucks apparently not doing very much.

The idea would be to limit the maximum number of trucks based upon the depot type, capacity and priority. Any thoughts or observations that anyone may have would be appreciated. (For WitE2.0 we are looking to activate a piece of code Gary wrote for WitW but which we didn't implement which allows prep point accumulation prior to launching an offensive which would boost logistics and perhaps morale (representing better planning). We think this code will be important for T1 GC 41 etc. Should that also be a factor?)

[Seminole]

All Armys and depots are at L-2 other then the panzer reserve Corps that are at L-4.

I find with the '43 start it only takes a few turns to fill up most of the depots. If you have units on L2 supply aren't you robbing them of garrison CV needlessly for all that time?
I can understand dialing it down if and when the supply network is under pressure, but for the first year or so in N Europe the champagne should be flowing...

I've raised with Joel and Gary a couple of times whether we need to control the maximum number of trucks that a depot can have. I'm sure you've often seen a depot with thousands of trucks apparently not doing very much.

I'm trying to pay more attention in this most recent game (in part to understand what might be the most effective ways to destroy Axis trucks when I play as the Allies). But that game has the east front option on, so its confusing to compare to my other games.

I've taken to tracking the Vehicles in Units/Vehicles Units Need %, as well as the aggregates of Vehicles in Depots + Vehicles in Units + Vehicles in Pool, and Vehicles in Depots + Vehicles in Units + Vehicles in Pool + Vehicles in Repair

Depots + Units + Pool vehicles gives me an aggregate of trucks to see if my overall motor pool is growing or shrinking.

With the EF box on I'm seeing almost 5x as many trucks repaired as produced each turn.

I'd love to see the vehicles need % listed in the CR, because those problem children need attention, and it isn't immediately obvious if your truck force has been robbed by the quartermaster.

More so than trying to put arbitrary limits in a supply chain designed to flow on need, what if I could 'flush' trucks from a depot to a unit(s)? Something akin to how air transported elements 'share' their non-air mobile elements before transport.

I asked in the OP if anyone knows where trucks go when I disband a depot. Reason I asked, and what started me thinking about this, was noticing a depot in northern Italy. Balzano is situated south of the Alps, and for some reason had over 1000 trucks assigned early in the game. I took a look and saw how many FZs in the mountains this depot was called on to support. So I spent about 5 AP sprinkling depots in the German towns that were within 3 hexes of this line of forts (so they can use organic transport).
There are a lot of locations like this (particularly airfields) that the Germans can build depots closer too that should, over the long course of the game, make an impact on their truck fleet.

So now I'm later in the game (turn 20?). I have 136k trucks in depots, 130k of which were used. I have 35k trucks in the motor pool, and a need of 34k trucks in my units.
I'd like to empty that motor pool and have the depots struggle with figuring out their 6k truck surplus than have my units operating at 80% vehicle need (a figure that is much worse in several of the armored formations).

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

All Armys and depots are at L-2 other then the panzer reserve Corps that are at L-4.

I find with the '43 start it only takes a few turns to fill up most of the depots. If you have units on L2 supply aren't you robbing
them of garrison CV needlessly for all that time?
I can understand dialing it down if and when the supply network is under pressure,
but for the first year or so in N Europe the champagne should be flowing...

I always play with EF box off. This helps with my data. As you state yours is mixed, mine is not. The champagne should be flowing in late 44 not late 43.

As with WitE everything works north to south.

Hexes to Berlin and turns left, no different then WitE.

I am playing game 17 and 18 using my logistics model and have yet to have issues with fuel, supplies, manpower or VP's as Germany.

I don't spend allot of time with the air game as I am looking at WitE 2.0, how combat is modeled and logistics.

Trucks are huge as with WitE as is the rail net.

Play with the box off or on, but stay with one so your data is good.

[Seminole]

I always play with EF box off. This helps with my data. As you state yours is mixed, mine is not. The champagne should be flowing in late 44 not late 43.

EF box has some exploit issues, and makes balancing too much of a chore. Better to just abstract it completely in this game's scope for a more enjoyable game. But its neat the option is there, especially for games against the AI and 'what ifs'.
But my comment with regard to 'the champagne' is that after a few turns the depots in Europe are full, by putting your units at level 2 supply priority aren't you just leaving garrison CV on the table?
What's the point of lowering their consumption below 100% of need in the first year, when your N Europe transport network is in top shape?
Am I incorrect that having 100%+ of supply and ammo will boost garrison CV overall?

As with WitE everything works north to south.

Do you mean how the supply engine distributes, or just speaking in terms of your preferred strategic consideration?
There are some quirky things I'm trying to understand. I'll have depots in some ports set at 4, but they get ignored for ports set much lower. Or two ports set at 4, but all the supply goes to just one of them. Weird thing I noticed in my last event log was that Copenhagen had used 1k trucks sending supply to Koenigsberg.

Hexes to Berlin and turns left, no different then WitE.

If that play style interested me I wouldn't worry about how many trucks I had in my armored units.
I'm interested in the game as a canvas for military strategy, not organizing a 'clockwork' countdown to the game's prescribed end. In the end its an equation, and by your inputs you add the variables that create the curve you want to draw.
We have a different idea of art is all I'm getting at.

I am playing game 17 and 18 using my logistics model and have yet to have issues with fuel, supplies, manpower or VP's as Germany.

How many of those games were played before the railyard damage/supply reduction patch?

I don't spend allot of time with the air game as I am looking at WitE 2.0, how combat is modeled and logistics.

In the AARs you've posted which opponent do you think performed best at the air war as the Allies?

Trucks are huge as with WitE as is the rail net.

My big concern with trucks now is figuring out how best to get them back into my units when the depot/motor pool steals them. That's with static lines, sitting on depots, or within 3 hexes of them. The rule to pull trucks from units to make supply runs seems like it could be really crippling in WitE2.0 if those truck losses (diversion, really) can't be quickly recouped.

Play with the box off or on, but stay with one so your data is good.

S2Tanker created the rematch with it on, but my preference is off.
I'm interested in playing both sides, and EF box on and off, but for now I think it unbalances unfairly for the Germans. If the Allies had more openness in their OoB (similar to the Soviets in WitE) in response to EF box freedom that would be a more interesting 'what if' to me.

[Commanderski]

(For WitE2.0 we are looking to activate a piece of code Gary wrote for WitW but which we didn't implement which allows prep point accumulation prior to launching an offensive which would boost logistics and perhaps morale (representing better planning). We think this code will be important for T1 GC 41 etc. Should that also be a factor?)

I think that would be great but on T1 of the '41 campaign all the depots would be pretty full of applicable vehicles and as the Axis moved forward you would need to start doing more preparation for any major breakthrough/encirclement attempts.

[RedLancer]

I'm not sure I see your point. If the system is balanced correctly then we might avoid the need for special suprise rules on T1. After that the prep bonus allows you to increase logistics beyond standard (like a more incremental version of HQBU). It's a bonus not the norm.

[Commanderski]

like a more incremental version of HQBU

OK, that would be good. Now I understand what you mean.

[Seminole]

Still trying to understand some things.
Up to turn 31 with the EF box on, I have had the 21st panzer division sitting in northwest France all game, on a depot, on refit. I've had 10-30k trucks in my motor pool each turn. This formation got up to 109% TOE before I locked my armor at 99 max TOE, yet it still only has 61% of required trucks.
What can I do as the player to get more available trucks into this unit that hasn't even sniffed combat, much less enemy terrain away from depots, the entire game?
I have 18 armor and mech units on map and only 5 of them have more than 50% required trucks, 3 of those have been of garrison all game and the highest of any of those units is 74% required vehicles.
I'm starting to wonder if it wouldn't be worth my while to ship a unit to the east (I have a panzer division at 86% TOE and 81 morale and 81 experience that has 15% of needed trucks...) and pull it immediately back west so it goes to 50% vehicle need, since I have the damn trucks available in the motor pool...

[Seminole]

Double post

[KWG]

I have experimented with this. After refitting at a depot all you can - except trucks-, move from the depot and the "Administrative Staff" may decide the unit needs more trucks to resupply itself.

[Denniss]

Another issue with trucks affecting the Axis player only is the massive buildup in damaged trucks vs ahistorical very low repair rate. You have units crying for trucks but 200k (or more) stuck as damaged.

[KWG]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Another issue with trucks affecting the Axis player only is the massive buildup in damaged trucks vs ahistorical very low repair rate. You have units crying for trucks but 200k (or more) stuck as damaged.

Has one crying out "MECHANICS.... MECHANICS.... MY TIGER TANK PLATOON FOR SOME MECHANICS!


After seeing the workings of Motor pool, most people may want to be on the front line instead[:)]

[LiquidSky]

I've seen that too with lots of trucks in the damage pool..after a while, I get more back from repair per turn then I get from new production.

I don't think you can limit the number of trucks at a depot. The allies need to be able to make those large truck convoys, and the axis just never have enough trucks for it to matter.\

Well..maybe in Russia they will also have enough trucks, and a need for large truck convoys.