Everyone into the pool!

[Courtenay]

If you go through all the AARs, you will find at least two where Axis powers declare war on America impulse three of S/O 39, and the Allies declare war on a very large number of neutral minor countries impulse four. The Soviets also get involved early. I call this scenario "Everyone into the pool!"

I had long thought of seeing what would happen if the US got into the war on the first turn of the game, but couldn't figure out how to make such a scenario anything but a slaughter of the Axis by the Allies. Somehow, the idea of the Allies declaring war on most of the neutrals never occurred to me. Having large numbers of minor countries on the Axis side at least makes the game interesting.

In one of the AARs, the Allies were required to declare war on every neutral except one (MWiF has a bug if there are no neutral minor countries); in the other, a considerable number of the neutrals went to the Allied side.

If you were to play such a scenario, how would you allocate the neutrals between the two sides for maximum fun?

Would you leave any neutrals? (I would be very tempted to leave Switzerland neutral. Even Diplomacy leaves Switzerland neutral.)

Would you put any of the neutrals on the Allied side? (I would put at least Panama on the US side; the Canal Zone was occupied by US troops. Any others?)

Would you have Poland fight, or surrender?

[AlbertN]

The main problem is that Neutral Powers can only leave with 50% of their troops their nation.
And obviously the "Minor Production" does not cut for the massive USA boost.
Especially as the minors would use a low production multiplier meanwhile USA rockets to 1.25 immediately.

Japan benefits very little of having the added minors as pratically no minor would really help them except maybe Holland. (And then again I'd split Holland in spheres of Influence).

If I was to balance the game I'd have Poland fight normally - the turning point is the fall of France where the European minors (Turkey included) suddenly take a keen interest for the Axis.
That includes Switzerland.
Iraq, Persia and Afghanistan would align as well (by UK or so DoWin'g them).

All go to Germany or Italy - their pick.
Soviets cannot break the pact - but can claim Bessarabia and Finnish Borderlands, E.Poland and Baltics np. Not Soviets can perform DoWs.

England or France DoW Argentina and Peru and Chile; meanwhile Germany DoW all the other S.American countries. (USA cannot intervene yet)

That would set all the nations of Europe except the ones that got conquered already (Poland, Belgium and possibly Holland) in the Axis basket by being purposefully DoWed.

With that, once Jan / Feb 1941 hits, the Axis -must- DoW the US. US cannot enter before that date, even if they could roll; and must accept the surprise attack. UK / France cannot declare war to Japan either.
China must surrender once the USA are at war, no matter what is their situation.

Leave Tibet - that is useless - alone.

That means the Axis has still a good momentum - and in 1940 they get bolstered by an amazing amount of minors, and are relieved of partisans for the most in these nations.
But USA gets a very early war entry, and production boost, rocking at 1.25 production (so 50 points if they've not bought factories!) at Jan / Feb 1941.

[Centuur]

I think I would put only Mexico, Panama, Liberia, the Arab countries, Tibet and Nepal in allied hands. The Baltic States should become USSR controlled. The rest, I would put in Axis hands.

The reason for this: the US will get such a huge production in a short time and the Axis needs all production and units they can get there hands on to somewhat compensate for this...

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I think I would put only Mexico, Panama, Liberia, the Arab countries, Tibet and Nepal in allied hands. The Baltic States should become USSR controlled. The rest, I would put in Axis hands.

The reason for this: the US will get such a huge production in a short time and the Axis needs all production and units they can get there hands on to somewhat compensate for this...

I agree about Panama, Nepal, and Liberia. Kuwait and Saudi for the CW? Sounds reasonable.

Not at all sure about Mexico.

Switzerland goes Axis and not neutral?

[AlbertN]

Switzerland has 2 factories, imo is a definite go for Axis.
Also I'd wait the 1940 to add the minors - they'll get a bunch of extra troops that are better than their production since the beginning of 1939. (Like Romania gets Antonescu only in 1940).

But I rest in my case USA from the very beginning is a bit too much.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

Switzerland has 2 factories, imo is a definite go for Axis.
Also I'd wait the 1940 to add the minors - they'll get a bunch of extra troops that are better than their production since the beginning of 1939. (Like Romania gets Antonescu only in 1940).

But I rest in my case USA from the very beginning is a bit too much.

It probably is too much, but it could be fun.

[Jagdtiger14]

This idea is way pro-Allies. Probably wait until J/F '40. All of Latin America (esp including Mexico) would have to be given to the Axis...just to keep some US units and concern back home...even then. It would be fun for one game as an experiment until you discover the reality. Better to play America in Flames.

[AlbertN]

Well the main problem is that the minors would just get mopped in all one by one in probably less than a year. The isolated ones.
Yeah South America or even America whole could be given to Axis - even Panama, but how long would it take to the US to secure it all?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

Well the main problem is that the minors would just get mopped in all one by one in probably less than a year. The isolated ones.
Yeah South America or even America whole could be given to Axis - even Panama, but how long would it take to the US to secure it all?

That's not so easy done as it sounds. The US needs at least a year before they have build an Amph. That means that large scale invasions are not possible. Also, the addition of the Spanish, Brasilian and Argentinian navies to the Germans (or even better: the Italians) means that a lot of pressure is going to be put unto the convoy lines. France is going to get completely conquered very fast, because you can't defend it properly. This leaves the CW which will have to find a way to conquer Belgian Kongo very, very fast, before the Belgian CAV and TERR there will run into South Africa.
The addition of Turkey and Persia at the border with the USSR means that the Soviets suddenly got a huge border to defend, so they won't be able to put a lot of pressure on Germany too...
And for the US, with so few land units at start, it's going to be a long, long way through Mexico to the Panamacanal and beyond...

[Extraneous]

World in Flames: Global war (see 24.4.7)

1939 USA production multiple is 0.25

Increase the USA’s production multiple:
• by 0.25 when the US chooses entry option 22.
• by 0.25 when the US chooses entry option 34.
• by 0.25 when the US is at war with any Axis major power.
• by 0.25 when the US is at war with every Axis major power that has not yet been completely conquered.
• by 0.25 on the anniversary (i.e. after every 6 turns) of the turn the US selected entry option 34.

US chooses entry options:
22. Gear up production - The US production multiple increases by 0.25. You also need a tension level of at least 11 against all major powers on the other side before this option may be chosen.

34. Pass War Appropriations Bill - The US production multiple increases by 0.25. You can only choose this option if you chose entry option 22 in a previous turn and have a tension level of at least 17 against all major powers on the other side.

Post # 244

Production
No USA /Japan convoys no oil from Venezuela.
18x Oil resources
25x Resources
43 total resources

40x Factories times 1.25 production multiplier = 50BP


Land Units
Nimitz (HQ-I), Macarthur (HQ-I)
2x GUN
1x ENG
1x INF division

Repair pool
Carriers ~ Saratoga (2 BP)
Battleships/Battlecruisers ~ Maryland (2 BP) and Colorado (2 BP)

Nov/Dec 1939
Heavy Cruisers ~ Houston
Light Cruisers ~ Helena and St Louis
Sub [fd] (1 BP)

Mar/Apr 1940
Carriers ~ Wasp
1x CVP
1x CP

May/Jun 1940
Battleships/Battlecruisers ~ Washington [fd] (4 BP) and North Carolina [fd] (4 BP)

Construction pool
Light Carriers ~ Langley (2+2 BP 6 turns)
Battleships/Battlecruisers ~ Wyoming (2+3 BP 6 turns)


Force Pools

Ships
Carriers ~ Hornet (2+3 BP 6 turns)
1x ASW (1+2 BP 2 turns)
2x AMPH (3+3 BP 4 turns), 1x AMPH (3+4 BP 4 turns)
1x TRS (2+2 BP 3 turns), 8x TRS (2+3 BP 3 turns), 5x TRS (2+4 BP 3 turns)
CP's (1 BP 4 turns) (counts a half a ship)
Tanker's (1 BP 5 turns) (count as half a ship)

Submarines
5x Sub (1+1 BP 3 turns)

Aircraft
ATR ~ 2x C-47 Skytrain (3 BP)
FTR2 ~ 2x P-35 (2 BP), 2x P-36A Mohawk (2 BP), 1x F2A Buffalo (2 BP), 1x P-40 Tomahawk (2 BP), 1x P-40C Tomahawk (2 BP)
LND3 ~ 1x B-18 Bolo (5 BP), 1x B-18A Bolo (5 BP), 1x A-20A Boston I (5 BP), 1x A-22 Maryland (5 BP), 1x B-17B Flying Fortress (6 BP)
NAV2 ~ 1x PBY1 Catalina (3 BP), 1x TBD Devastator (2 BP), 1x PBY5 Catalina (3 BP), 1x A-24 Dauntless (2 BP)
NAV3 ~ 2x A-29 Hudson (3 BP)
CVP (yellow) ~ 2x F4F-3 Wildcat (3 BP 4 turns), 4x TBD Devastator (3 BP 4 turns), 2x SBC-4 Helldiver (3 BP 4 turns)
CVP (blue) ~ 2x F4F-3 Wildcat (3 BP 4 turns), 2x F4F-4 Wildcat (3 BP 4 turns), 2x SBD-1 Dauntless (3 BP 4 turns), 2x TBD Devastator (3 BP 4 turns), 4x SBD-3 Dauntless (3 BP 4 turns), 2x SBD-4 Dauntless (3 BP 4 turns)

4x Pilots


Armor
2x ARM (6 BP 3 turns), 3x MECH (5 BP 3 turns), 1x ARM division (4 BP 4 turns), 1x MECH division (3 BP 3 turns)

Infantry
5x MOT (4 BP 3 turns), 5x INF (3 BP 2 turns), 1x PARA (5 BP 4 turns), 2x GARR (2 BP 2 turns), 1x TERR (Philippines) (2 BP 1 turn)
1x MOT division (2 BP 3 turns), 1x INF division (2 BP 2 turns), 1x MAR division (3 BP 3 turns), 1x PARA division (3 BP 4 turns)

Artillery
1x Gun (1x 90mm AAA (2 BP 2 turns) or 1x 40mm AA (5 BP 3 turns) or 1x 105mm Arty (5 BP 3 turns))

Supply
1x SUPP (3 BP)

Forts
1-hex side fort (2 BP), 2-hex side fort (4 BP), 3-hex side fort (5 BP)

Pilots
1x Pilot (2 BP)

With 50BP the USA can build:
All 5 MOT units (20BP which would arrive in 3 turns)
All 5 INF units (15BP which would arrive in 2 turns)
And still have 15BP left over.

March to Panama in 1940.

Use divisions from SCA to make landings. Follow up waves would land from TRS.

[Centuur]

You are forgetting the reserves.

Even when you use divisions, you need a lot of those to get something done. It takes 2 turns to build an INF. With only two divisions at start, the US hasn't got enough to work with before the summer of 1940, since it also needs to conquer Mexico. You also need land units to defend important places like Pearl and Pago Pago, before you can think about attacking...

Also: only if MacArthur gets evacuated in the first Allied impulse out of Manila, he will be usefull.

And the US needs to take naval actions too.

No, I would think the US needs at least a year before it has the forces it needs to make a difference. Perhaps the US can knock out of the war countries which hasn't got land units and Mexico during 1940. Perhaps it gets as far as Panama, but I don't think it can really make a difference in South America before 1941 has started...

[AlbertN]

But by 1941 the USA will be producing 60+ per turn - (At sept / oct 40 precisely if DoW'ed at start), and 70+ by the end of '41.
Even if Axis is unmolsted by USA til '41 - then their forces will be simply overwhelming for the production Axis can pull.

[CrusssDaddy]

I've done a lot of early USA and massive war scenarios in CWiF. The best balancer is to simply give China to Japan at set up. China is typically a really tedious front, so this kills two birds with one stone. Then Japan's first move is to close out the NEI, followed by Vladivostok. Japan opens '40 rivaling Germany for production capacity, and if you also give Italy and Germany about a dozen free points of naval builds you can have a pretty furious game with no one on the sidelines (except China, but who cares).

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

But by 1941 the USA will be producing 60+ per turn - (At sept / oct 40 precisely if DoW'ed at start), and 70+ by the end of '41.
Even if Axis is unmolsted by USA til '41 - then their forces will be simply overwhelming for the production Axis can pull.

Sure. And from that moment on, the US really starts to gobble up the minors in South America. Point is the US starts with almost nothing, but a navy. And that navy also needs carrier planes before it can become a real force for the Axis to deal with. So the US is short on everything during 1940, as is the CW, while the Axis gets a lot of extra units for free to work with from the minors they control, which they can use to crush the French and to start Barbarossa...

So I don't think the US can do a lot in South America in 1940.

[Jagdtiger14]

Giving China to Japan would be a BIG help!...not just production, but strategic position. A huge part of USSR far east would be under threat.

[markb50k]

I did one of those AARs and have recently gotten back into the game. Admittedly I am using a heavily modded game where I've updated country borders and simplified the game to my desire. I have pretty much done away with minor countries per se and each major power is now a global empire. It's really fun to experiment and bend the game into something it isn't. Really interested in what you guys come up with.

[Extraneous]

How do you implement this scenario [&:]

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

How do you implement this scenario [&:]

Start the game normally.

On impulse three of S/O 39, all the Axis powers declare war on the US and any minors that the players decide should go on the Allied side. Italy and Japan should also declare war on the CW and France, to get the benefit of the surprise impulse.

On impulse four, the Allies declare war on all the minor countries that should go on the Axis side.

Make a decision about what to do with the USSR. I would have Japan and Italy declare war on it impulse three of S/O 39. Germany and the USSR won't be able to go to war until 1940, but I suspect one side or the other will be able to declare war pretty quickly.

For fun's sake, have Germany and Italy declare war on China, even though that probably won't make too much difference. The goal is to have the half the whole world at war with the other half.

On MWiF, I understand that this can not quite be done; I am told that the DOW on minors form has a bug if there are no neutral minors, although I have not checked this myself. However, there are several countries with no resources or armed forces; one can leave one of those neutral and not affect things.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay
Start the game normally.

On impulse three of S/O 39, all the Axis powers declare war on the US and any minors that the players decide should go on the Allied side. Italy and Japan should also declare war on the CW and France, to get the benefit of the surprise impulse.

On impulse four, the Allies declare war on all the minor countries that should go on the Axis side.

Make a decision about what to do with the USSR. I would have Japan and Italy declare war on it impulse three of S/O 39. Germany and the USSR won't be able to go to war until 1940, but I suspect one side or the other will be able to declare war pretty quickly.

For fun's sake, have Germany and Italy declare war on China, even though that probably won't make too much difference. The goal is to have the half the whole world at war with the other half.

On MWiF, I understand that this can not quite be done; I am told that the DOW on minors form has a bug if there are no neutral minors, although I have not checked this myself. However, there are several countries with no resources or armed forces; one can leave one of those neutral and not affect things.

Since there has been more interest in this scenario than I expected. I thought we should clarify how it can be set up.



Options:

Whether you use rule 19.8 Allied minor countries or not.

You could require the USSR to DoW Turkey on Impulse four and move a unit into Turkey to break the Nazi-Soviet pact.

[Courtenay]

Interesting idea on how to break the Nazi Soviet pact. I had not thought of that.

Yes, my question was which minor countries should go Axis, and which should go Allied. I do not know the answer; that I why I started the thread. I think that Panama should go to the US. Everything else is up in the air. An earlier post suggested that Liberia and Nepal should go Allied (US and CW), which I agree with. Most of the others should go Axis. Should anybody else go Allied? Should anyone be neutral? Those are the questions.

Even with the US in the game, France is in deep trouble with Spain coming in from the rear. Paris may fall fairly quickly. However, Vichy will not be declared, because Vichy can not be declares after the US is at war with Germany, so France will fight on. I feel this is appropriate, given the nature of the scenario. This will change the way the French fight; instead of dying to hold on to Paris as long as possible, the French will instead try and use their defense lines to hold out as long as possible. The longer the French hold onto a part of the continent, the more the Russians will like it. The Russians will have there own problems, with a new southern front coming at them.