Dogfights and interceptions

[PzB74]

The one thing that I've always found unrealistic in WIR is how aircombat is solved.

1. It shouldn't be possible for a single fighter, no matter how good it is, to shoot down 8-17 planes.
This happens quite often with fighters vs fighter bombers. A single Me262 has shot down 17 P47's more times than I can remember. A single plane shouldn't be able to shoot down more than 4-5 enemy planes in one engagement.

2. No matter how many escort fighters I have around my bombers, they fail more often than not at stopping the intercepters. E.g 144 FW190's escorting 40 Ju88's. 22 Yak-9T's intercepting. 144 FW's vs 22 Yak's = 2/4 casualties. 17 Yak's attack the bombers. I agree that a small number of fighters can slip through and make a rush attack, but more often than not, they would be driven away by such a potent escort.
Weak airgroups should also be shot completely out of the sky now and then. 144 FW's vs 5 Yak's = 1/2 casualties. 2 Yak's attacking the bombers. Blæh!

It shouldn't be so that the smaller the number of intercepters, the harder it is to shoot them down. 8 groups of each 5 fighters is much more efficient at shooting down bombers than a single group of 40. This isn't realistic. The problem of coordination and numbers would render the small groups unefficient and easy pray for the escorts.

3. Multiple attacks on bomber groups: When a group of 20 fighters are attacking 3 groups of 20 bombers they attack each of them in turn!
If 20 fighters break throug the escort, then they can attack one of the bomber groups, not all of them. Ammo, timing, fuel and disorganization wouldn't allow them to hit more than one group.

The new patch for WIR fixes quite a few bugs....but none of them nearly bothers me as much as the anomalies in the aircombat engine.

Just take a look at how aircombat is solved in UV!
Hail to the king

[Ed Cogburn]

Like I said in another thread, the entire air combat system should be considered a bug.

[Denniss]

But the Air combat system is better than in Pacwar

I have no problems with the system WIR uses - it's more historical and player controllable as in Pacwar

[PzB74]

Guess I hoped they could change it in a patch one day....)
Maybe it's to fundamental to be changed!?

[Stefdragon]

I take it for granted that there is a "Randomization Filter" written into the combat calculation of any computer game confrontation.

Certainly WIR has that. It is my intuition more than anything else that this RF is more in effect in the air routines in WIR, (as well as who shows up) than in the other combat resolution routines in the game.

That could be what's driving you nuts more than anything else!

But remember, those fighters had a real tough job from the get-go. They didn't fly WITH the bombers...they flew OVER them! Way, way, over them!

They worked mostly alone, in bone jarring cold of more than -30 F. Only tank OX. Blazing sun above the clouds, from which the enemy would dive out of towards the hapless bombers below, if possible. For those pilots, it was hours and hours of the ear numbing drone of the immense engines under their total control, that propelled them into the almost blinding instantaneous and momentary terror of air combat, while traveling at hundreds of miles an hour, and feeling the subsequent effects of GRAVITY!(WHEEE!!) When wrong or unlucky, they would pay the ultimate price of certain death that was and still is combat in the skies! (whew!)

My point is that I would think the ablility of especially the fighters to show up for a tussle, would be a more complicated algorithm, in a high speed 360 Degree environment no less, and subject to more of that darn RF, than say in comparison to calculating the results of 155mm shells hitting unentrenched infantry out in the open in 2-D. (SPLAT!!)

Anyhow, that's my rationalization of the situation. But I agree in principle with everything you guys have said. I specially like the loss of readiness the more planes fly. Let the player decide where and when to expend the air resources, and pay the ultimate price for any errors in judgement. One mission for the Bombers, and unlimited for the fighters in strategic bombing does seem somewhat imbalanced.

[MikeB]

I am betwixt and between.
The German air production system is small compared to the Russians. To give the Germans an air chance, small groups of ftr must be effective. Choice...more german air production or less effective combat? hmm. comments?

Daylight bombing raids were discontinued in the actual war due to bomber losses. Night time bombing was very haphazard as to targets. This led to carpet bombing and Dresdan. Hitting the odd tank, factory or ground squad was perhaps a challenge.

As to combat ratios, ie. 150 ftr vs 4 enemy fts. It seems as though your combat power is calculated as a proportion of the enemy available targets. ie. 90% of 4 is 3 kills...whereas 10% of 150 is 15. Could this be an aspect of the combat situation.
I suspect the same applies to tank combat(Anti Tank) and perhaps Artillery to an extent. If so....then yes, it is rather a basic building block of the game. If you change it....does that mean that production equations also have to change. Perhaps time to start from scratch in a brand new game design?

An accurate documentation of each and every calculation in say 3 combats WOULD be nice. As i understand it, only Arnoud knows the details or can find it out. Fog of War is the benefit. Do we like it? probably not. Do you feel like a General on the front...perhaps.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by MikeB
Daylight bombing raids were discontinued in the actual war due to bomber losses. Night time bombing was very haphazard as to targets. This led to carpet bombing and Dresdan. Hitting the odd tank, factory or ground squad was perhaps a challenge.

Deep penetration daylight raids were only suspended temporarily. Once long range fighters became available, P47s and P39s with drop tanks and P51s, the daylight raids resumed and escalated.to regular thousand bomber raids on distant targets. "Carpet bombing" was a tactic carried out day or night, the time didn't matter.

[Stefdragon]

I also wondered about MikeB's comment on the discontinuation of
daylight bombing. In fact, the daylight bombing discontinued temporarily because the American B-17 bombers (The Brits flew at night because they drink tea I guess) were getting chewed to pieces during the day on long runs without escort. Once as Ed pointed out, the tank drop fighters went into service, the daylight raids picked up along with the Brits at night, with fierce intensity right up to the end of the war.

The movie "Twelve O'clock High" starring Gregory Peck as the Air General is one of the most powerful war/anti-war movies I have ever seen on the subject! His performance was magnificent!
I would not want to be in any of those guys shoes for anything maan!

They had to first fly 20, then 25, then 30 missions by 1945 to get to go home alive!

My birthday, February 13th, is sadly the anniversary of devastating British night FIRE BOMBING raids on Dresden and Hamburg I believe.

There was probably no other service in the American Military during WWII that took anywhere near the casualties those guys did, and I SALUTE THEM ALL! It was a dirty job, but everyone knew it had to be done!

[Stefdragon]

Look, you guys are not just wargamers and history buffs, You're also COMPUTER NERDS, with mathematical-like minds.

Let me therefore take you by the hand, and waltz you down a path using simple physics, geometry, and probability, with which I am sure that you are all familiar, to one degree or another.

In WWII air combat, 150 fighters vs. 4 fighters is just not the same "arithmetic" for lack of a better word, as say 150 Panthers vs. 4 T-34's, or 150 infantry attacking a 4 man machinegun nest!!

IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT!!

Those tanks are not ALL traveling at upwards of some 400 MILES AN HOUR IN A 360 DEGREE ENIVRONMENT, subject to heaven only knows what kind of other parameters 2-D combat does not encompass.

In WWII air combat, the only way you could shoot down the enemy, was at close range with albeit a powerful machinegun, but nevertheless, a machinegun. Have you ever seen footage of two WWII fighters coming towards eachother?

Okay here you go hot shot!! I'm going to give you your opportunity to shoot down your opponent...ZWING! There you go! That was it!! In the time it took to say ZWING!!, that was how much time you had to shoot down the son of a @#%*!!

See what I mean?

Kill Opportunity in WWII fighter combat was fleeting and momentary at best, if you could get anywhere near an enemy fighter. I don't care how many planes are coming after you, if you want to get away and you're not flying a flukin' crate, you're going to prpbably get away!!!

Okay, now on to geometry and more physics.

Quite simply, if you were to VECTOR 150 aircraft into anywhere near the same point in the sky at anywhere near the same time,
What do you think is going to happen?.....you have five seconds.....exactly! See my point? You answered your own question with a little help!

They would have blown eachother out of the sky, and crashed into eachother so much that even if those four enemy fighters went down, so many friendlies would have shot eachother to pieces and crashed into eachother that such an encounter would be simply stupid to execute on the part of the pilots, if they could achieve it!

My point ultimately is that the numbers in air combat cannot be "crunched" as they are in virtually any other combat calculation.

I invite comment and rebuttal!!

"Before you criticize your fellow Matrix Members, walk a mile in their shoes. This way, by the time you do criticize them, you're a mile away if they get angry....and you have their shoes!!"-Native New Yorker

[MagnusOlsson]

Stefdragon, I agree. The same rationale goes for everything in the game. 200 squads isn't an advantage if the terrain is against them. 500 KV's are no good in a city etc.
The problem is that these are tactical and/or operational issues while WiR is/try to be/want to be a strategical game. If anything is to be done it should be to make things less detailed, not more.


Magnus

[pjcbt]

I agree that 4 fighters can attack a formation of 150 planes and get away with it. The problem is that this planes are the escorts, not the bombers.

The statistics say (AFAIK) that 4 of each 5 planes shoot in air combat don´t see their enemy. In a dogfight you don´t have time to aim, you fire half a second and evade. Four planes can surprise the escorts, and only the last ones, but will have a tough time to arrive at the bombers without being seen by anybody. Only the germans with the 262 could do this, and not always.

Having said this, the germans destroyed american bombers despite being badly outnumbered, but their losses were higher than the americans ones.

With this fragmented answer i only want to say that 4 vs 150 is a suicide and they should be wiped out at least 4 times of five. And I don´t agree in a system that calculates the casualties as a percentage of the victims (the more troops you have, the more losses you suffer).

PD: sorry for my bad english and some incoherence in the text.

[MikeB]

I expected at least one person to comment upon long range fighter escorts and re-start of daylight bombing.

Yes, there could be such a thing as too many friendly airplanes at one point in the sky crashing into each other. How many is too many? is the next bonus question.

Cheers.

[Stefdragon]

Originally posted by MikeB
Yes, there could be such a thing as too many friendly airplanes at one point in the sky crashing into each other. How many is too many? is the next bonus question.
Cheers.

Please allow me to elaborate somewhat on my bravado-laden previous post, regarding the physics of fighters vs. fighters.

First off, a huge number of planes in any category can be in the same place and time in the sky relatively, but they must be in a strict and well trained formation. It could be fighters, bombers, or fighters and bombers, but they were moving in the same direction at similar speeds, and in strict formation in a number of vertical layers. The Allies became experts at doing that with their bombers. The fighters would do the same, until they "rolled out into combat." Even the mighty B-17 FLYING FORTRESSES with escort could expect to say bye-bye if they violated those principles. Everything about the strategy of Allied bombers surviving lent itself to following that one basic premise, stay in tight formation at all times!

The challenge for me is imagining the chaos of fighter to fighter dogfighting with say 150 vs. 4, or anything else for that matter! Everything goes out the window so to speak when it comes to who is where and when doing what to whom under those circumstances!

It must not be too difficult to frame a computer model of such a scenario, but it is certainly beyond my technical ability. (Take one of those little Christmas toys where the snowflakes are falling nice and uniform, and then you shake it up real good!)

Rogue fighters trying to penetrate that swam (schools of fish fending off barracuda or sharks show the same behavior in grouping, African Dingo-Dogs separating the weak from the pack, and then moving in for the kill) would not vastly effect those parameters, BUT fighters going into the haphazard dance of dogfighting with other fighters, boggles my mind as to the math calculations, and just turns everything else I said upside down!

That's where the RF that I was talking about comes into play more so than in other formulas for combat resolution.

I'll just stick to riding my mountain bike for now, thank you.

[RickyB]

Here is an article that is being written by somebody in relation to a bombing raid on Germany. It shows some of the chaos and luck that occurs in air battles, making them hard to develop a system for. I found it very interesting myself. The article was sent in relation to a news article about a missing pilot's grave from one of the US bombers being found.



The 11 September, 1944 Mission to Ruhland

By
Kenneth Breaux


On 11 September 1944, a huge formation of three bomber groups, accompanied by a protective force of fighters, took off to bomb a number of oil producing facilities in far eastern Germany near the Czech border. The bomber formations were to begin the bomb runs just after 1200 hours, with strikes occurring over the next 20 minutes until the numerous targets were struck. The distance was about 1300 miles round trip, at the maximum range of the fighter escorts. Early warning stations in the Netherlands alerted the Luftwaffe to the huge concentration of bombers as they flew toward the targets. At about 1130, the 55th Fighter Group and its three (38th, 338th, 343rd) squadrons were escorting the 100th Bomb Group in the vicinity of Oberhof, Germany. The flight leaders saw a huge formation, estimated at as many as 150 German fighters, on a westerly course and opposite to the formation track and at 30,000 feet. The group leader called for two of the squadrons to begin a climbing turn to the right, while the third squadron remained as bomber close protection. The turn would give the P-51’s an altitude advantage and place them in an “up sun” position from which they could surprise the ME-109’s. The German fighters, based at Alteno and Weltzow, were from Jadgeschwader 4, and many of the young pilots were on their first combat mission. Beginning at approximately 1135 and lasting only about 8-10 minutes, the battle ensued. In the course of that short span, the American fighters downed 24 German fighters and lost two of their own. Now, with external tanks dropped and out of ammunition, the two squadrons of the 55th had no fighting capacity and returned to home base at Wormingford, leaving the 343rd Fighter Squadron to remain with the bombers. While all of this action took place, a twin engine German aircraft was seen orbiting the battle scene at an altitude higher then the fighters had originally flown. Probably a radio relay ship, this aircraft was to play a large part in what happened next. Penetration support was to have been provided by another fighter group and the responsibility for withdrawal support by yet another. The mission was big, complex, and hard to coordinate. As the bombers continued on, some of the sections became extended in length, making it more difficult for the fighters to provide protection over the long column. Just as the bombers made the final turn for the Initial Point over the Czech border, the Germans vectored another massive formation against the long bomber stream. This occurred at just about the point where the hand-off from penetration support to target support for the accompanying fighters was to occur. This was a key defensive move by the Luftwaffe; it had been gained by study of the operations of the fighter support and coordination of the complex scheme used by the USAAF. This time, the fighter attack was composed mainly of heavily armored Sturmjager 109’s. Their objective was to carry out slashing attacks on the bombers, seeking only to damage and isolate the B-17’s. The loss of only one engine was usually sufficient to achieve this, and the bomber would be too slow to remain with the formation. After this, they would be attacked by the ME-109’s and destroyed. The battle would now belong to the Luftwaffe. In a short and furious attack, bombers began to fall from the skies over the village of Kovarska in the Czech Republic. Of the thirty-six B-17’s in the 100th Bomb Group departing Thorpe Abbots, twenty-two would return. Fourteen bombers and their crews would be lost to the Luftwaffe that day. Lt. William Lewis, the subject of our search and one of only two who remained as MIA, fell in the action above Oberhof. One other Fortress pilot is still missing.

The action at Oberhof may have been unintended. The great number of JG 4 pilots on their first mission, 21 of whom were killed, may have been begun by two ME-109’s which bolted out of their formation and attacked the Americans. The original plan may have been to wait until the hand-off of the penetration support to the target support group took place. The results might have been the same had the battle at 1135 not occurred.

All of this is being prepared as a book length manuscript, the title of which is “Courtesies of the Heart”. That title came from a quote by the German writer Goethe, who talked of kind actions, which he termed “courtesies of the heart”. I had looked for a suitable quote by a German author to describe the old German gentleman who cared for the remains of Lt Lewis and made it possible for us to recover him after so many years.

For those who wish to further study this battle and its aftermath, there is an outstanding web site maintained by Jan Zdiarsky. Jan is an aviation researcher and historian, who also built a museum honoring the men of the USAAF and Luftwaffe in his hometown of Kovarska, Czech Republic. The site is www.lf.czu.cz/museum119. It can also be searched as “museum of the air battle of 11 September”.

[Stefdragon]

Interesting comparison, but hardly amusing. The ultimate results will hopefully be the same, once we get into motion!