(Allied) Air Combat TF reacting multiple times per phase

[Lokasenna]

As a followup to my thread in the main forum... I didn't want to post that here until I was sure, from input from others and from looking several more times at what happened during the replay, that something seemed untoward with regards to Allied Air Combat TFs and the special carrier movement that occurs during the morning and afternoon air phases.

Near as I can tell, and without being omniscient, it seems to me that it is possible for Allied CV TFs to react multiple times in the air phase when what is intended is only 1 hex of reaction per air phase (so up to 2). It also seems to me that Japanese CV TFs may only react 1 time, as would seem to be the intent.

Here's a video where I show what my settings were. In sum: all reaction 0 (eliminating naval reaction possibilities), 3 out of 5 of the TFs set to Direct/Absolute (seemed not to matter in this case).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Yh6CYrEOg
Again, you will likely need to view in full screen due to the resolution of my recording.


I suppose if the intent is for carrier task forces to be able to react and cover such long distances outside of the normal reaction/movement phases, then this isn't actually a bug. It's just so far out of the realm of predictability as to make planning carrier battles and their aftermath impossible.

[michaelm75au]

Get this when trying to look at video.
This video is private.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Get this when trying to look at video.
This video is private.

Herp. Forgot to change settings on it when it finished uploading. It's set to public now.


It was just faster to do the video than to take 10+ screenshots and paste them together.

[michaelm75au]

I thought I had read somewhere that CVTF following other TFs would not react.
If you have the end of turn save (or combat save), I would like to play it myself to refresh my memory on how the CV TF 'react'.
Thanks

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I thought I had read somewhere that CVTF following other TFs would not react.
If you have the end of turn save (or combat save), I would like to play it myself to refresh my memory on how the CV TF 'react'.
Thanks

I thought I had read that also but it was just Forum Gospel so I assumed there was a chance it was incorrect [:D].

Attached is end-of-turn save from me. We are in the most recent beta.

[Lokasenna]

Attached to this one is the combat replay that I received back, and used for the video.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I thought I had read somewhere that CVTF following other TFs would not react.
If you have the end of turn save (or combat save), I would like to play it myself to refresh my memory on how the CV TF 'react'.
Thanks

I thought I had read that also but it was just Forum Gospel so I assumed there was a chance it was incorrect [:D].

Attached is end-of-turn save from me. We are in the most recent beta.

Alfred clearly stated that the Air React would override any follow orders.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I thought I had read somewhere that CVTF following other TFs would not react.
If you have the end of turn save (or combat save), I would like to play it myself to refresh my memory on how the CV TF 'react'.
Thanks

I thought I had read that also but it was just Forum Gospel so I assumed there was a chance it was incorrect [:D].

Attached is end-of-turn save from me. We are in the most recent beta.

Alfred clearly stated that the Air React would override any follow orders.

Not would so much as can... if the commander is aggressive enough.

[BBfanboy]

Good clarification Lokasenna. I should have re-read the other dialogue on react taking place on the main forum.

[Lokasenna]

Any update? Still looking?

Been too busy to mess with this can of worms? [:D]

[michaelm75au]

Have to wait till weekend. Too busy at work, and then too tired when get home[:D]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Have to wait till weekend. Too busy at work, and then too tired when get home[:D]

No worries, your volunteer time is much appreciated by all of us!

[michaelm75au]

The CVTF are NOT reacting as in the normal sense of reaction to TFs.

Carriers will attempt to close the range on detected enemy Carriers, if they have not already reacted. This movement happens once per Air Phase, before the air strikes.
Allied CVTF due to their shorter ranged planes, need to move closer to Japanese CVTF than the Japanese CVTF does towards Allied CVTF. Thus the Allied ones 'appear' to react more - the message is displayed each time the TF moves.

Carrier closure dependent on ammo, planes, sorties, and TF leader aggression rating.
This has always been the case.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The CVTF are NOT reacting as in the normal sense of reaction to TFs.

Carriers will attempt to close the range on detected enemy Carriers, if they have not already reacted. This movement happens once per Air Phase, before the air strikes.
Allied CVTF due to their shorter ranged planes, need to move closer to Japanese CVTF than the Japanese CVTF does towards Allied CVTF. Thus the Allied ones 'appear' to react more - the message is displayed each time the TF moves.

Carrier closure dependent on ammo, planes, sorties, and TF leader aggression rating.
This has always been the case.

OK, so they're just reacting once, even though the message is being displayed multiple times (once per hex, it seems). That's good that it's only one reaction, at least.

However, the manual states that they will only react ONE hex. Is the manual wrong? I mean, at the start of the air phase we were 6 hexes apart. I assume he reacted first, making us 5 hexes apart, and then my TFs went 3 and 4 hexes in the first phase, with the TFs that went 3 hexes in the first phase going the 4th hex in the second phase. Some of the TF CO's were on the cautious side (Aggr 53 and 49 - can't get much more cautious than that without sacrificing Air skill, etc.).

Is it really intended to close 120-160 miles instantly, from only 200 miles away? [X(] By my reading of the manual, they should've moved 2 hexes maximum, not 4. So the manual is wrong and always has been?

Much appreciate you looking into this, I imagine it must have involved a lot of debug messages and running the replay to see them.

[michaelm75au]

It is suppose to be one hex per phase, but there is a defect I have found while tweaking this 'reaction'.
The CVTF are reacting to each enemy CVTF it detects and moving ONE hex; rather than moving ONE hex on the first one detected. It should be ignoring looking for more enemy CVTFs; the code has been written this way, but incorrect code statement was used.

Currently, the CVTF will close with enemy CVTF even if it has no attack planes (i.e. the CVTF may only have fighters on board). Not good and probably not something to be expected. My tweak is an additional check for more attack groups present on the CVs than fighter groups before it will close.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

It is suppose to be one hex per phase, but there is a defect I have found while tweaking this 'reaction'.
The CVTF are reacting to each enemy CVTF it detects and moving ONE hex; rather than moving ONE hex on the first one detected. It should be ignoring looking for more enemy CVTFs; the code has been written this way, but incorrect code statement was used.

Currently, the CVTF will close with enemy CVTF even if it has no attack planes (i.e. the CVTF may only have fighters on board). Not good and probably not something to be expected. My tweak is an additional check for more attack groups present on the CVs than fighter groups before it will close.

Hurrah! I know how lots of booleans can make your eyes glaze over, especially those with complicated and/or repetitive conditions. Many thanks for your hard work. [&o]

Interesting find also on the attack planes, and the check.

I think we will need to make sure Alfred sees the change so he can get it in his big project.

[michaelm75au]

Updated beta

[ny59giants]

Currently, the CVTF will close with enemy CVTF even if it has no attack planes (i.e. the CVTF may only have fighters on board). Not good and probably not something to be expected. My tweak is an additional check for more attack groups present on the CVs than fighter groups before it will close.

Seeking some more clarification here. Since you can have 5 air groups per CV, if I have 2 fighter, DB, TB, and a divided Wildcat fighter/recon group of 4 fighters (see screen shot), will it react? If the TF leader has above 60 Aggression rating in the TF example, will it react? I may need to beach Admiral Halsey to find another TF leader with a little less aggressiveness.

[michaelm75au]

If that was only CV in the TF, and all other considerations (like ready planes compared to capacity, damaged CVs, etc) aside, then it would not close with enemy CVTF as it has more F groups than TB/DB ones. Regardless of the aggressiveness of the TF leader.
I am trying to stop CVs from closing with enemy CVTFs without resources. Thinking about it, I could have used type of aircraft rather group type as the limiting factor - was originally going to, but thought group would be sufficient.

However, based on the post, and the way normal CV groups (F/DB/TB) could be altered esp in mods, it might be a toss up as to which is better; F group(s) could have more planes than a DB and TB group together.[:D]

[ny59giants]

Thanks for the clarification MichaelM!! [&o][&o]

Now I can micro-manage my CVs air group numbers to get my CVs to do mainly what I want. It will help me as Allies in 42 and for parts of 43 when I don't want a CV vs CV clash.