Gentlemen,
Could someone give me a refresher course on how weapon values, such as Accuracy, Warhead and AP Kill are determined. I know that there a probably specific or standardized formulae for detemining these, but I have forgotten what they are.
I know this is not the correct location for this discussion, but I am picking up the SP:Civil War "torch" where Sami and his group have apparently left off, and am now researching weapons values for weapons such as the Springfield, Enfield and the Austrian Lorenz, to name a small few.
If any of you have any interest in contributing weapons stats such as maximum effective range and ROF, I'd love to hear from you, before I go out and buy a load of books on the matter.
I am also considering converting hexes to 25 yards, to reflect a more realistic scale for the width of a company front, and because 50 yards is too wide for the distance between artillery pieces in a battery, just to name a few reasons. If this is not workable, could someone please tell me now, before I start?
Regards,
David Boutwell
weapon values
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
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David boutwell
- Posts: 347
- Joined: Sun May 28, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
I don't see any reason why 25 won't work.
Short range weapons. slow movement some and all of that should be ok.
Buildings, roads, etc will be better (IMO) since they won't occupy so much space on a map.
Rate of fire may be tricky - I am not sure one can make them slow enough.
Rate of fire will be about 3-4 rounds per minute for muzzle-loaders. Sustained fire not very feasible due to fouling from black powder. When I did reenactment stuff, the barrels would foul and either make it difficult to load properly or one would have to live with fouled rifling. Sharps, etc were faster. Seems like my Sharps repro would fire perhaps 10 shots a minute for a short while, then it would foul also.
I had a Gallager repeating carbine that used a sort of brass cartridge and seperate primer (cavalry weapon). Similar to Sharps except shorter range.
My experimenting with the Sharps indicates that the extreme ranges cited for buffaloe hunters, etc were not nearly as possible in combat situations where one wouldn't have time to calculate windage, elevation, etc. It was a real pumpkin slinger out past 100 yards. Actually, every muzzleloader I ever fired had a tremendous arch to its fires.
Black powder pistols were similarly disadvantaged. A Colt percussion .36 Navy got real dirty after the cylinder was empty. Ditto for the Remington and Colt Dragoon. Effective range in field conditions? 50 yards at most.
I shot a .50 cal long-barrelled rifle a lot. Beyond a 100 yards, elevation and windage was tough. Similar to shooting a bow. The ability to judge distance and wind velocity was critical to accurate shooting. Velocity was around 1500 fps. Too much powder and the ball would jump the rifling. Too little and the velocity would fall off.
Of course firing on a range at known distances was another story.
The smooth bore stuff was pathetic beyond 50 yards. But most were either .54 or .70 caliber. I think there were a substantial number of .70 caliber Enfields in service.
Confederates manufactured copies of Colt, Remington, and other revolvers although they usually had brass frames and were not as strong or reliable as Yankee weaponry. They also copied the Gallager and Sharps in small quantities.
Dixie Gun Works used to have a decent catalog of civil war reproduction weaponry. I would try Dixiegunworks.com or DWG.com and see if they still list the calibers, sizes etc as they used to.
I was never involved in firing cannons - merely watched.
It would be good if one could figure a way to have a temporary puff of smoke for each round of cannons..... and a lesser puff for all all weapons.
Another good source of info would be your local black powder or Civil War re-enactment group. They used to like to tell about their hobby.
Short range weapons. slow movement some and all of that should be ok.
Buildings, roads, etc will be better (IMO) since they won't occupy so much space on a map.
Rate of fire may be tricky - I am not sure one can make them slow enough.
Rate of fire will be about 3-4 rounds per minute for muzzle-loaders. Sustained fire not very feasible due to fouling from black powder. When I did reenactment stuff, the barrels would foul and either make it difficult to load properly or one would have to live with fouled rifling. Sharps, etc were faster. Seems like my Sharps repro would fire perhaps 10 shots a minute for a short while, then it would foul also.
I had a Gallager repeating carbine that used a sort of brass cartridge and seperate primer (cavalry weapon). Similar to Sharps except shorter range.
My experimenting with the Sharps indicates that the extreme ranges cited for buffaloe hunters, etc were not nearly as possible in combat situations where one wouldn't have time to calculate windage, elevation, etc. It was a real pumpkin slinger out past 100 yards. Actually, every muzzleloader I ever fired had a tremendous arch to its fires.
Black powder pistols were similarly disadvantaged. A Colt percussion .36 Navy got real dirty after the cylinder was empty. Ditto for the Remington and Colt Dragoon. Effective range in field conditions? 50 yards at most.
I shot a .50 cal long-barrelled rifle a lot. Beyond a 100 yards, elevation and windage was tough. Similar to shooting a bow. The ability to judge distance and wind velocity was critical to accurate shooting. Velocity was around 1500 fps. Too much powder and the ball would jump the rifling. Too little and the velocity would fall off.
Of course firing on a range at known distances was another story.
The smooth bore stuff was pathetic beyond 50 yards. But most were either .54 or .70 caliber. I think there were a substantial number of .70 caliber Enfields in service.
Confederates manufactured copies of Colt, Remington, and other revolvers although they usually had brass frames and were not as strong or reliable as Yankee weaponry. They also copied the Gallager and Sharps in small quantities.
Dixie Gun Works used to have a decent catalog of civil war reproduction weaponry. I would try Dixiegunworks.com or DWG.com and see if they still list the calibers, sizes etc as they used to.
I was never involved in firing cannons - merely watched.
It would be good if one could figure a way to have a temporary puff of smoke for each round of cannons..... and a lesser puff for all all weapons.
Another good source of info would be your local black powder or Civil War re-enactment group. They used to like to tell about their hobby.
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David boutwell
- Posts: 347
- Joined: Sun May 28, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Redleg,
I did reenactment, as well, from about 1979-1989, when I got married, and no longer desired to spend my weekends that way, and no longer desired to deal with the politics. I participated in most of the 125th anniverary battles, and once even rode a train from New Orleans to Manassas, and marched to the battlefield about 5-10 miles away, just as the Louisiana unit we were portraying did for the real battle (that's just one of the many reenactment stories I could tell.....I have to tell this one...At Shiloh, I believe it was, it was so damned cold, that when a guy's Sibley tent caught on fire, everyone gathered around to get warm, at his expense! Couldn't put it out. All we had was the water in our canteens, and that was ice!)
While researching personal accounts of soldiers, I read on several occasions that the maximum effective range for the Springfield and Enfield is 500 yards. I never did a lot of live firing, so I wouldn't know what I could hit at what range, although a friend of mine and I did shoot down a dead tree at about 75-100 yards one time! I think that the descrepency between your numbers and documented ranges is the fact that those guys were firing from a massed formation. Even if you had drift, you were still going to hit somebody, assuming the range wasn't too far (although statistics show that for every man killed in the Civil War, a God-awful amount of lead was thrown at him). Tests showed that at a range of something around 800-1000 yards, a Minie Ball from a Springfield could still penetrate something like a centimeter of wood, which was considered a lethal hit. This might explain why, in SPI's Terrible Swift Sword, the range of a regiment with 1st quality rifles is 5 hexes (times 120 yards per hex), although at 4 and 5 hexes, hitting power is 1/2.
Anyway, I am very serious about doing this right, so if anybody has useful info, such as Redleg's, please chime in.
Regards,
David Boutwell
I did reenactment, as well, from about 1979-1989, when I got married, and no longer desired to spend my weekends that way, and no longer desired to deal with the politics. I participated in most of the 125th anniverary battles, and once even rode a train from New Orleans to Manassas, and marched to the battlefield about 5-10 miles away, just as the Louisiana unit we were portraying did for the real battle (that's just one of the many reenactment stories I could tell.....I have to tell this one...At Shiloh, I believe it was, it was so damned cold, that when a guy's Sibley tent caught on fire, everyone gathered around to get warm, at his expense! Couldn't put it out. All we had was the water in our canteens, and that was ice!)
While researching personal accounts of soldiers, I read on several occasions that the maximum effective range for the Springfield and Enfield is 500 yards. I never did a lot of live firing, so I wouldn't know what I could hit at what range, although a friend of mine and I did shoot down a dead tree at about 75-100 yards one time! I think that the descrepency between your numbers and documented ranges is the fact that those guys were firing from a massed formation. Even if you had drift, you were still going to hit somebody, assuming the range wasn't too far (although statistics show that for every man killed in the Civil War, a God-awful amount of lead was thrown at him). Tests showed that at a range of something around 800-1000 yards, a Minie Ball from a Springfield could still penetrate something like a centimeter of wood, which was considered a lethal hit. This might explain why, in SPI's Terrible Swift Sword, the range of a regiment with 1st quality rifles is 5 hexes (times 120 yards per hex), although at 4 and 5 hexes, hitting power is 1/2.
Anyway, I am very serious about doing this right, so if anybody has useful info, such as Redleg's, please chime in.
Regards,
David Boutwell
I was pretty good with my muzzleloader - I won numerous shooting events. Granted we were shooting at Hi-Ho crackers instead of a massed formation... 
The first round after cleaning the bore was always the most accurate. By the third round, the black powder residue was accumulating and gumming up the rifling so the patterns were progressively enlarging. That may be why almost all competitive shoots fired in 3 round groups.
It must have been tough to fumble with the primer, balls, powder charge, ramrod, etc while moving and/or under fire.
BTW, minie balls were better than just dropping a ball down the barrel but not nearly as good as a patched ball.
All of my life I have heard these claims of accuracy at very long distances but some bare-footed, unfed snuffy under fire is not likely to score big. I suppose that is one reason they used massed formations. I have never seen any consistent results like those stories without shooting from a rest. The buffalo hunters used a tri-pod with their Sharps rifles. So if they were good at judging distance and wind effects, accuracy was greatly enhanced.
Anyway, the reenactment events were always fun to attend. More so in the Summer than in freezing weather!
The Civil War mod should be a fun project.
Someone mentioned in the past, the idea of using larger formations (platoon-size) in order to simulate the massed formations better. A platoon on a 25meter hex seems pretty good for that purpose. Two formations facing off at 75 meters or so would be about right I suppose. A bloody mess.
Cannister shot will be tough to model.
Good luck with the project.
The first round after cleaning the bore was always the most accurate. By the third round, the black powder residue was accumulating and gumming up the rifling so the patterns were progressively enlarging. That may be why almost all competitive shoots fired in 3 round groups.
It must have been tough to fumble with the primer, balls, powder charge, ramrod, etc while moving and/or under fire.
BTW, minie balls were better than just dropping a ball down the barrel but not nearly as good as a patched ball.
All of my life I have heard these claims of accuracy at very long distances but some bare-footed, unfed snuffy under fire is not likely to score big. I suppose that is one reason they used massed formations. I have never seen any consistent results like those stories without shooting from a rest. The buffalo hunters used a tri-pod with their Sharps rifles. So if they were good at judging distance and wind effects, accuracy was greatly enhanced.
Anyway, the reenactment events were always fun to attend. More so in the Summer than in freezing weather!
The Civil War mod should be a fun project.
Someone mentioned in the past, the idea of using larger formations (platoon-size) in order to simulate the massed formations better. A platoon on a 25meter hex seems pretty good for that purpose. Two formations facing off at 75 meters or so would be about right I suppose. A bloody mess.
Cannister shot will be tough to model.
Good luck with the project.
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David boutwell
- Posts: 347
- Joined: Sun May 28, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Thanks for your feedback, Redleg.
"Could someone give me a refresher course on how weapon values, such as Accuracy, Warhead and AP Kill are determined. I know that there a probably
specific or standardized formulae for detemining these, but I have forgotten what they are".
Does this mean that no one in this group knows how to determine these values for a particular weapon, other than just pulling numbers out of the air? What happened to all of the OoB editors that used to post their stuff here?
Nobody else has taken a look at the SPCW mod.? There has to be someone else in here that would love to recreate some of the more dramatic small engagements of the Civil War!!!!!
Regards,
David Boutwell
"Could someone give me a refresher course on how weapon values, such as Accuracy, Warhead and AP Kill are determined. I know that there a probably
specific or standardized formulae for detemining these, but I have forgotten what they are".
Does this mean that no one in this group knows how to determine these values for a particular weapon, other than just pulling numbers out of the air? What happened to all of the OoB editors that used to post their stuff here?
Nobody else has taken a look at the SPCW mod.? There has to be someone else in here that would love to recreate some of the more dramatic small engagements of the Civil War!!!!!
Regards,
David Boutwell
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David boutwell
- Posts: 347
- Joined: Sun May 28, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Hell, while we're at it, why not create a SP:Zulu War mod, and a SP: Rev. War maod, etc.
One of the things I've already discovered is, although there are darn near limitless icons for vehicles, etc., there are very, very few icons avalable for infantry units in SP. Therefore, in an era where, as opposed to different types of vehicles, etc. providing the "flavor", you would ideally have different infantry uniforms providing the flavor, as well as different types of units. Imagine Zouave icons, Berdan sharpshooters in green, color (flag) companies, skirmishers, mounted and dismounted command units, early war grey union uniforms, early/mid/late war confederate uniforms, Butternut uniforms, Iron Brigade black hats.........can't happen at this point....All of those wasted icons......
But, hey, I have made a few tweeks alredy. I've changed the unit firing sounds to volley fire sounds, changed the scale to 25 yards and doubled movement points from the SP points for cav, infantry, etc., and WOW!!!! did that make a major change to the mod that has been posted. It went from a disaster to one with all kinds of promise, if only some technically inclined people would get interested.
I've already made a visit to Manassas Battlefield to establish contact and meet with the resident Civil War firearms expert. So, I'm motivated, and I have access to some gret resources for the period, considering I live in Northern Virginia.
So, where are all of the Civil War fans?
Regards,
David Boutwell
One of the things I've already discovered is, although there are darn near limitless icons for vehicles, etc., there are very, very few icons avalable for infantry units in SP. Therefore, in an era where, as opposed to different types of vehicles, etc. providing the "flavor", you would ideally have different infantry uniforms providing the flavor, as well as different types of units. Imagine Zouave icons, Berdan sharpshooters in green, color (flag) companies, skirmishers, mounted and dismounted command units, early war grey union uniforms, early/mid/late war confederate uniforms, Butternut uniforms, Iron Brigade black hats.........can't happen at this point....All of those wasted icons......
But, hey, I have made a few tweeks alredy. I've changed the unit firing sounds to volley fire sounds, changed the scale to 25 yards and doubled movement points from the SP points for cav, infantry, etc., and WOW!!!! did that make a major change to the mod that has been posted. It went from a disaster to one with all kinds of promise, if only some technically inclined people would get interested.
I've already made a visit to Manassas Battlefield to establish contact and meet with the resident Civil War firearms expert. So, I'm motivated, and I have access to some gret resources for the period, considering I live in Northern Virginia.
So, where are all of the Civil War fans?
Regards,
David Boutwell
Jim, it's more of making blueprints and a wooden model for casting...18th century mortar coming up.. 
David, afaik there really is no set rules for determining warhead size, range and accuracy. Just check some threads concerning mg effectiveness and like...
However, with small arms the warhead size is _always_ 1
As this value mainly affects penetration effects and splash damage you can just set every pistol/rifle to 1
Now what warhead size to use for cannons??? This is kinda tough as the 3 ammo types used are solid shot, explosive round and cartess (beehive)
Now you could give black powder cannon both AP and HE ammo, AP meaning solid shot and HE meaning explosive round.
In SPWaW it seems that warhead size goes up one point for (roughly) each 20mm in calibre...for example 20mm and 37mm guns are 2, while 40mm is 3, 50+mm are 3, 75mm is 4 and so on.
As the older guns weren't that effective you could use bit lower values..perhaps 2 for lighter guns and 3 for siege cannons?
As for kill ratio..now this is where the arguments start *sigh*. For bolt-action rifles this value is also 1. For muzzleloaders you'd need something lower but unfortunately that's not possible.
For explosive cannon shot...how about take a look at equivalent calibre SPWaW arty piece and divide it's kill value by 3? Those old grenades exploded very often before they even reached the target...and didn't fragment very well. You could create second set of cannons that would have shorter range and higher HE kill to represent cannons firing beehive.
Accuracy...another can of worms. So, if SPWaW rifle has an accuracy of 8, it means that firing at a target 2 hexes away, a unit with certain experience and with certain conditions prevailing there is a 50% chance of a hit. This % is then modified with many factors, like experience levels, target/shooter movement, suppression etc.
I'd suggest you give all muskets a value of zero. Yep, zero. I've fired quite a few times with a Brown Bess replica and it's darn hard to hit a target 50 metres away...hmm..but those wheren't really in use any more that time...well, perhaps you create an earlier mod one day
But still, I'd say the accuracy for revolvers at least must be zero (I own a Colt Dragoon replica..fun to shoot but...) Cartridge black powder rifles would be actually quite accurate but the range should be relatively short. I think the cutoff point should be at 100 metres max..perhaps even 50m, maximum range perhaps 300 metres.
Hopefully this rambling helps...drop me a line if you just got more confused.
Voriax
David, afaik there really is no set rules for determining warhead size, range and accuracy. Just check some threads concerning mg effectiveness and like...
However, with small arms the warhead size is _always_ 1
As this value mainly affects penetration effects and splash damage you can just set every pistol/rifle to 1
Now what warhead size to use for cannons??? This is kinda tough as the 3 ammo types used are solid shot, explosive round and cartess (beehive)
Now you could give black powder cannon both AP and HE ammo, AP meaning solid shot and HE meaning explosive round.
In SPWaW it seems that warhead size goes up one point for (roughly) each 20mm in calibre...for example 20mm and 37mm guns are 2, while 40mm is 3, 50+mm are 3, 75mm is 4 and so on.
As the older guns weren't that effective you could use bit lower values..perhaps 2 for lighter guns and 3 for siege cannons?
As for kill ratio..now this is where the arguments start *sigh*. For bolt-action rifles this value is also 1. For muzzleloaders you'd need something lower but unfortunately that's not possible.
For explosive cannon shot...how about take a look at equivalent calibre SPWaW arty piece and divide it's kill value by 3? Those old grenades exploded very often before they even reached the target...and didn't fragment very well. You could create second set of cannons that would have shorter range and higher HE kill to represent cannons firing beehive.
Accuracy...another can of worms. So, if SPWaW rifle has an accuracy of 8, it means that firing at a target 2 hexes away, a unit with certain experience and with certain conditions prevailing there is a 50% chance of a hit. This % is then modified with many factors, like experience levels, target/shooter movement, suppression etc.
I'd suggest you give all muskets a value of zero. Yep, zero. I've fired quite a few times with a Brown Bess replica and it's darn hard to hit a target 50 metres away...hmm..but those wheren't really in use any more that time...well, perhaps you create an earlier mod one day
But still, I'd say the accuracy for revolvers at least must be zero (I own a Colt Dragoon replica..fun to shoot but...) Cartridge black powder rifles would be actually quite accurate but the range should be relatively short. I think the cutoff point should be at 100 metres max..perhaps even 50m, maximum range perhaps 300 metres.
Hopefully this rambling helps...drop me a line if you just got more confused.
Voriax
Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!
My unexpert ramblings...
Voriax, FYI, what you are calling "beehive," we say "grape shot" or "cannister" in American English.
As for rifle and pistol accuracy: I used to fire black power rifles (.45 flintlock and percussion Kentucky Longrifles) at an oil drum about 50 yards away and only hit it about 50% of the time. Now you may say I'm a terrible shot, but my real point is that if I then took out my ~1865 .45 (.38?) Navy Colt revolver, I could hit that thing 6 out of 6 shots. Of course the stopping power of the pistol was MUCH less. You could tell by the impact. The pistol round would take a moment to reach the target and then bouce off while the rifle hit (seemingly) immediately and would sometimes go through the target barrel.
At 50 yards I'd rather have a pistol than a rifle.
Voriax, FYI, what you are calling "beehive," we say "grape shot" or "cannister" in American English.
As for rifle and pistol accuracy: I used to fire black power rifles (.45 flintlock and percussion Kentucky Longrifles) at an oil drum about 50 yards away and only hit it about 50% of the time. Now you may say I'm a terrible shot, but my real point is that if I then took out my ~1865 .45 (.38?) Navy Colt revolver, I could hit that thing 6 out of 6 shots. Of course the stopping power of the pistol was MUCH less. You could tell by the impact. The pistol round would take a moment to reach the target and then bouce off while the rifle hit (seemingly) immediately and would sometimes go through the target barrel.
At 50 yards I'd rather have a pistol than a rifle.
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
Most Civil War revolvers were .36 cal. Later, the larger bore Remington and Colts came along (model 1864 IIRC).
I have been experimenting with the existing bows and arrows in SPWAW. They have a range of 1 and may be useful to take a look at to get a handle on lethality. The scenario I am creating will be finished in a day or two in which both sides are using bows and arrow. Very interesting to see just how well they work.
It is very important (I believe) to not "over gun" the units as is the case in SPWAW where it assumes bizarre proportions at times.
Far easier to be conservative and then crank up as required.
Cavalry has the potential to be very exciting and tons of fun but it is very poorly modeled in SPWAW. What is needed is the ability to dismount. Also, "mounted infantry" formations are missing and much needed.
M/C and cycle infantry are not conducive to modification since they are quasi-armored units. It seems to me that this is something that will be hard to get past.
Wagons which explode much the same way as trucks are also going to require some sort of adjustment. It would be very good if the horses were the vulnerable part of wagons and the actual vehicle did not explode.
I have been experimenting with the existing bows and arrows in SPWAW. They have a range of 1 and may be useful to take a look at to get a handle on lethality. The scenario I am creating will be finished in a day or two in which both sides are using bows and arrow. Very interesting to see just how well they work.
It is very important (I believe) to not "over gun" the units as is the case in SPWAW where it assumes bizarre proportions at times.
Far easier to be conservative and then crank up as required.
Cavalry has the potential to be very exciting and tons of fun but it is very poorly modeled in SPWAW. What is needed is the ability to dismount. Also, "mounted infantry" formations are missing and much needed.
M/C and cycle infantry are not conducive to modification since they are quasi-armored units. It seems to me that this is something that will be hard to get past.
Wagons which explode much the same way as trucks are also going to require some sort of adjustment. It would be very good if the horses were the vulnerable part of wagons and the actual vehicle did not explode.
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David boutwell
- Posts: 347
- Joined: Sun May 28, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Great Feedback, guys!
I plan om visiting with the curator Manassas Battlefield, soon. According to a fellow teacher of mine, who was a long-time seasonal ranger there, the curator really knows Civil War small arms. Maybe he'll have some historical data on effective firearms ranges. I also ordered a book that covers this information for all of the small arms of the Civil War. Hopefully, I'll have a handle on that info. soon. The feedback that you guys gave will also be most useful.
I am currently working on experimenting with replacing the Bocage icons with the hedge icons (as there isn't a lot of bocage in the US), and replacing the hedge icons with split-rail fences. Hedges may provide more concealment, but they may not provide a whole lot more protection than some split-rail fences, so maybe it will work. Split-rail fences are absolutely necessary for this mod, and that was the only way that I could think of adding them within the constraints of my programming ability. Hedges will now have the characteristics of Bocage. Don'e see a lot of hedges around, but those that are usually are pretty substantial, sucha s with tall boxwood hedges. So, hopefully I can get away with this.
It is encouraging to see other people show an interest in this time period. I really want to make this work.
Regards,
David Boutwell
I plan om visiting with the curator Manassas Battlefield, soon. According to a fellow teacher of mine, who was a long-time seasonal ranger there, the curator really knows Civil War small arms. Maybe he'll have some historical data on effective firearms ranges. I also ordered a book that covers this information for all of the small arms of the Civil War. Hopefully, I'll have a handle on that info. soon. The feedback that you guys gave will also be most useful.
I am currently working on experimenting with replacing the Bocage icons with the hedge icons (as there isn't a lot of bocage in the US), and replacing the hedge icons with split-rail fences. Hedges may provide more concealment, but they may not provide a whole lot more protection than some split-rail fences, so maybe it will work. Split-rail fences are absolutely necessary for this mod, and that was the only way that I could think of adding them within the constraints of my programming ability. Hedges will now have the characteristics of Bocage. Don'e see a lot of hedges around, but those that are usually are pretty substantial, sucha s with tall boxwood hedges. So, hopefully I can get away with this.
It is encouraging to see other people show an interest in this time period. I really want to make this work.
Regards,
David Boutwell
Redleg, a slight correction
.44 calibre Colt Dragoon was introduced 1848, the smaller calibre (.36) Colt Navy came couple years after that..
And before the Dragoon there was even bigger Colt Walker, but that was meant to be used from horseback, as the gun was 16 inches long
Then the various Remington models from 1860 onwards.
Voriax
.44 calibre Colt Dragoon was introduced 1848, the smaller calibre (.36) Colt Navy came couple years after that..
And before the Dragoon there was even bigger Colt Walker, but that was meant to be used from horseback, as the gun was 16 inches long
Then the various Remington models from 1860 onwards.
Voriax
Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!
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Sturmpionier
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 8:50 pm
- Location: Jennings, FL, USA
Go CW!
This all sounds great!!
It sounds like you are working on a lot of the technical aspects of translating the 1940's to the 1860's. My question is a little more basic as I have been watching the posts about this project for a while. I was just wondering if you had any working SP:CW maps yet for your endeavor. These would be by far the easiest part of the production, but I didn't know if you had worked around to it yet.
I would just like to eventually get my hands on some for some quirky little scens of my own. I have all the tools necessary to make some maps, but, unfortunately, I have been cursed with an accute case of sloth. It would be so much easier to use someone else's maps.
Thanks.
P.S. Ignore that urge to contact any reenactors. They are crazy! Especially ones from Florida. Absolutely nuts! Except for me, of course.:p
It sounds like you are working on a lot of the technical aspects of translating the 1940's to the 1860's. My question is a little more basic as I have been watching the posts about this project for a while. I was just wondering if you had any working SP:CW maps yet for your endeavor. These would be by far the easiest part of the production, but I didn't know if you had worked around to it yet.
I would just like to eventually get my hands on some for some quirky little scens of my own. I have all the tools necessary to make some maps, but, unfortunately, I have been cursed with an accute case of sloth. It would be so much easier to use someone else's maps.
Thanks.
P.S. Ignore that urge to contact any reenactors. They are crazy! Especially ones from Florida. Absolutely nuts! Except for me, of course.:p
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash
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David boutwell
- Posts: 347
- Joined: Sun May 28, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
I have one of Devil's Den. It is pretty good. I can send it to you or post it here. I don't recall who made it.
I intend to convert everything to 25 yard hexes, for the reasons discussed above. But before I go building super-detailed maps of McPherson's Ridge, the railroad cut and Herbst's Woods, I want to work out the OoB's. If those gel, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will be creating some maps. In fact I'm going to Gettysburg this weekend just to look for small scale topographic maps of that battlefield, as that and Manassas would probably be my first projects, followed by Antietam, Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville.
Just think about how the smaller scale and shorter ranges will make individual little pieces of territory like the Wheatfield and Devil's Den a lot bigger in total area on the game map, and allow for individual regiments to maneouvre within them the way they really did. Man, I am psyched about this!
The only thing that bums me out is the fact that there is no way to change infantry formations, mount and dismount cavalry (although I've toyed with mounts being classified as vehicles, which would allow troopers to load and unload; I'd then replace the sound files so that horses don't sound like duece-and-a-halfs. horses could be given pistol armament (yes, no?) to reflect mounted troopers. You might think that would give plain old horses power, but being vulnerable, who would use their horses as weapons anyway? Wouldn't you take those to the rear, where their pistol armament would be useless anyway? Does this make any sense??), or to have variety in uniforms.
Voriax, if I compiled a list of weapons, would you be interested in assigning effective combat ranges, or do you think that, no matter what weapon a guy had, his range was the same as everyone else's? I would tend to question that. If you had two sets of raw recruits, one group with Springfields or Enfields, and one group with reworked flintlock muskets, or second-rate rifle muskets, who, as a group would score more hits further out? Doesn't the difference become more significant when you have massed formations?
Regards,
David Boutwell
I intend to convert everything to 25 yard hexes, for the reasons discussed above. But before I go building super-detailed maps of McPherson's Ridge, the railroad cut and Herbst's Woods, I want to work out the OoB's. If those gel, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will be creating some maps. In fact I'm going to Gettysburg this weekend just to look for small scale topographic maps of that battlefield, as that and Manassas would probably be my first projects, followed by Antietam, Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville.
Just think about how the smaller scale and shorter ranges will make individual little pieces of territory like the Wheatfield and Devil's Den a lot bigger in total area on the game map, and allow for individual regiments to maneouvre within them the way they really did. Man, I am psyched about this!
The only thing that bums me out is the fact that there is no way to change infantry formations, mount and dismount cavalry (although I've toyed with mounts being classified as vehicles, which would allow troopers to load and unload; I'd then replace the sound files so that horses don't sound like duece-and-a-halfs. horses could be given pistol armament (yes, no?) to reflect mounted troopers. You might think that would give plain old horses power, but being vulnerable, who would use their horses as weapons anyway? Wouldn't you take those to the rear, where their pistol armament would be useless anyway? Does this make any sense??), or to have variety in uniforms.
Voriax, if I compiled a list of weapons, would you be interested in assigning effective combat ranges, or do you think that, no matter what weapon a guy had, his range was the same as everyone else's? I would tend to question that. If you had two sets of raw recruits, one group with Springfields or Enfields, and one group with reworked flintlock muskets, or second-rate rifle muskets, who, as a group would score more hits further out? Doesn't the difference become more significant when you have massed formations?
Regards,
David Boutwell
One of the main reasons there isn't any dismount cav in the present game is that the AI can't deal with it. It attacked with its horses. After some time and much debate, the idea of dismount cav was dropped as being too complicated for the AI to understand and deal with. IIRC, the AI will either treat cavalry as it does trucks and wagons or assault if the unit has weapons and ammo.
This sounds very good. It will be something to look forward to.
One possibility is that an infantry unit could be modded to represent cavalry. Appropriate icon and sounds could be associated with it. One could give this cav unit a carry capacity of 10 and then it could carry its own infantry. These troopers would dismount when the unit was fired on. The horses would not run away since they are infantry. So the AI would lose all of its infantry much as it does snipers, recon, etc. But they would be a heckuva lotta fun pbem or online. Scenarios would have to be
designed to take the AI ignorance into account as is the case now.
Don't forget observation balloons.
This sounds very good. It will be something to look forward to.
One possibility is that an infantry unit could be modded to represent cavalry. Appropriate icon and sounds could be associated with it. One could give this cav unit a carry capacity of 10 and then it could carry its own infantry. These troopers would dismount when the unit was fired on. The horses would not run away since they are infantry. So the AI would lose all of its infantry much as it does snipers, recon, etc. But they would be a heckuva lotta fun pbem or online. Scenarios would have to be
designed to take the AI ignorance into account as is the case now.
Don't forget observation balloons.
-
Sturmpionier
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 8:50 pm
- Location: Jennings, FL, USA
maps and all
I would love any maps you could post. I must admit though all my notions about doing any G'burg scens didn't take into account a smaller per hex size. I was thinking of using maps on the old model of 50yds/hex. But this makes total sense and I can lend some practical experience to that as both a CW and WWII reenactor. My WWII platoon is about the size of my CW company, but I cover over twice as much frontage with the same number of men in WWII. Intuition could lead you here though, close order vs skirmish line formation.
What I was looking for in maps was again a larger map using the 50yds/hex design covering the battlefield in large chunks. As the resident oddball here (at my house) I would eventually like a first-day map: Seminary Ridge and NW of town; and a days two thru three map: Culp's hill through the Round Tops. Maybe I will have to motivate my lazy behind and make them myself.
I for one would encourage you to pursue the dismounted cav idea. Make the horse a vehicle, the engine should handle it. Even if they get assaulted the only problem is that your horses will explode when hit. Could be added for comical effect. Besides, the horses themselves should be behind the firing lines for most of the battle anyway, if you do this along historical lines. However, if you want to re-create the cav clash on the third day, you might wind up with a Kursk style tank battle on your hands by accident.
Kudos to you in any case. Keep up the hard work.
What I was looking for in maps was again a larger map using the 50yds/hex design covering the battlefield in large chunks. As the resident oddball here (at my house) I would eventually like a first-day map: Seminary Ridge and NW of town; and a days two thru three map: Culp's hill through the Round Tops. Maybe I will have to motivate my lazy behind and make them myself.
I for one would encourage you to pursue the dismounted cav idea. Make the horse a vehicle, the engine should handle it. Even if they get assaulted the only problem is that your horses will explode when hit. Could be added for comical effect. Besides, the horses themselves should be behind the firing lines for most of the battle anyway, if you do this along historical lines. However, if you want to re-create the cav clash on the third day, you might wind up with a Kursk style tank battle on your hands by accident.
Kudos to you in any case. Keep up the hard work.
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash