I need general advice on how to win carrier battles, especially as the IJN. Playing as the Allies against the AI, I had success simply with setting a very high CAP%, letting the enemy attack die against my wall of fighter cover, and then closing in for the kill with my dive-bombers. But I actually find it harder to win a carrier battle as the IJN, even with my superior range.
In my current game, for example, my CVs (5 or 6, in 4 separate TFs, all together in one hex) launched an attack, with escorts, from 10 hexes away. Everyone was pretty well rested; no fatigue over 15, most under 10, and high morale/exp. Nonetheless, the attacks arrived piecemeal, and I lost 70 bombers and some fighters with no hits to show for it. (Only about a dozen bombers made it through air-to-air combat.) Thus the Allied CV is using the same technique against me that I earlier used when I played the Allies: it just played defense. In fact, it still hasn't launched a strike against my CVs. The AI is predictable, and I *still* can't sink its CVs; imagine how badly I'd fare against a human in PBEM!
So, how can I maximize the chance that my bombers and fighters all arrive together? I launched from different TFs in the same hex. Would it help to put 3 or more CVs in one TF? Does that make it more likely that planes will fly together? Is this piecemeal thing a feature or a bug?
Also, what % CAP/escorts do you recommend? I like 60-70% CAP at least, but maybe I'm being too cautious.
How do you win a carrier battle?
Posted by Grotius
I would suggest that you make full use of this by giving these groups the highest practical escort you can (60+%). The more quality bombers you get through, the better the chance of victory. Use the range advantage as best you can.
It also means that you'll have to expect more damage in return but I don't think the A6m2 are a great CAP fighter anymore, so a higher CAP % can't ensure higher survivability. If you can keep out of his torp bomber range, you shouldn't suffer heavy flotation damage to your CVs, so many will make it home. All going well, most allied CVs will be sunk or crippled.
This is a last resort to maximise your chances when you can't rely on anything else but I often find the Japanese will suffer amazingly light casualties despite having light CAP. Try it out in one of your AI games.
From the Japanese POV, one advantage they still have (in 2.20) is their high quality, naval strike squadrons. While not vastly better overall, they still have an edge over the allied squadrons (especially the ones on Akaigi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu). If your playing during the middle of '42, you also get the advantage of being the only side with a decent range, CV torpedo bomber.Also, what % CAP/escorts do you recommend? I like 60-70% CAP at least, but maybe I'm being too cautious.
I would suggest that you make full use of this by giving these groups the highest practical escort you can (60+%). The more quality bombers you get through, the better the chance of victory. Use the range advantage as best you can.
It also means that you'll have to expect more damage in return but I don't think the A6m2 are a great CAP fighter anymore, so a higher CAP % can't ensure higher survivability. If you can keep out of his torp bomber range, you shouldn't suffer heavy flotation damage to your CVs, so many will make it home. All going well, most allied CVs will be sunk or crippled.
This is a last resort to maximise your chances when you can't rely on anything else but I often find the Japanese will suffer amazingly light casualties despite having light CAP. Try it out in one of your AI games.
Have no fear,
drink more beer.
drink more beer.
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CapAndGown
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Re: How do you win a carrier battle?
Originally posted by Grotius
So, how can I maximize the chance that my bombers and fighters all arrive together? I launched from different TFs in the same hex. Would it help to put 3 or more CVs in one TF? Does that make it more likely that planes will fly together? Is this piecemeal thing a feature or a bug?
You should have at least 2 CV per TF. I would not go with a 1 CV TF. On the other hand, I would not put all the CVs in one TF either since they might all be hit in one massive strike. If you had 4 CVs and 2 CVLs, you might try 2 TFs of 2 CVs and 1 CVL each.
CAP isn't the problem IMO
My experience is limited, but it seems to me that most of my IJN losses to strike planes occur from flak. Kates especially get demolished. Vals probably suffer more from CAP, but I've not done any study, just going with memory.
I'm going to try that lower CAP percentage for IJN carrier TF's...say 40%...and see what happens with my strikes. I still think my Kates are going to get killed.
I'm going to try that lower CAP percentage for IJN carrier TF's...say 40%...and see what happens with my strikes. I still think my Kates are going to get killed.
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
Thanks for the advice, Cap & Gown. I will try being more aggressive in setting escort levels.
And you're right, I think I've got to stop going with one-CV TFs. Among other things, that requires lots of escorts. It also creates extra logistical headaches. Getting 4 Air Combat TFs to move together, for example, is no mean feat. These days I assign a Surface Combat TF to lead the pack, so as to avoid the 1-hex reaction, but if even one of the four CV TFs lag behind, we've got a problem.
Incidentally, do you know offhand how much CV damage shuts down its runway? I recall reading that if x+y>50, the CV can't launch or land planes, but I don't remember if x and y are SYS, FLT, or FIRE, or what. Can't find it in the manual...
And you're right, I think I've got to stop going with one-CV TFs. Among other things, that requires lots of escorts. It also creates extra logistical headaches. Getting 4 Air Combat TFs to move together, for example, is no mean feat. These days I assign a Surface Combat TF to lead the pack, so as to avoid the 1-hex reaction, but if even one of the four CV TFs lag behind, we've got a problem.
Incidentally, do you know offhand how much CV damage shuts down its runway? I recall reading that if x+y>50, the CV can't launch or land planes, but I don't remember if x and y are SYS, FLT, or FIRE, or what. Can't find it in the manual...
TF size:
2-3 carriers are ideal. 4 is max. Add to this one CA (Tone class preferably) a CL with radar (if you got it yet) and 6-8 DDs with high AA ratings.
Escort level:
40-60% CAP is optimal, depending on how much opposition you are expecting.
Playing defensive is safe, but no fun. It works for USN players becasue they have large fighter squadrons, but IJN don't have this luxury.
Battle Range:
10 hexes I always felt is too far. More often than not your strikes will arrive disjointed and piecemeal. 6 seems to be best, but anything under 8 is good.
Absolute best would one 1 hex, undected
, but i've only had that happen once so far....
General hints:
It helps to have a scouting TF of CS ships for detecting enemy carriers.
When entering battle, don't move your CV's around too much. Try and conserve OP points (that means no replenishing too). The more op points the larger and more strikes you can get off.
Also, never send your CV TF's alone to seek battle. Keep a few surface combat, transport or odds and ends TF's around. Helps to break up the enemy strike somewhat..
And it dosn't hurt to keep an eye on the weather.
Groups your CV's by speed. If you want all your TF's to move at the same speed, make sure that the slowest unit of each TF have similar match speeds. The Akagi can move 8 knots faster than the Junyo, so you might want to slow the Akagi TF down with a slower CVL or the Kaga.
If you have multiple CV's following others, dosn't hurt having admirals with similar aggressiveness ratings. Japan has three 'cautious' CV TF commanders AFAIK, and personnaly i've had better luck with them than with the agressive admirals.
CV flight operations shut down when combined SYS and FLT damage cross 50. I don't think FIRE effects flight operations any(?).
2-3 carriers are ideal. 4 is max. Add to this one CA (Tone class preferably) a CL with radar (if you got it yet) and 6-8 DDs with high AA ratings.
Escort level:
40-60% CAP is optimal, depending on how much opposition you are expecting.
Playing defensive is safe, but no fun. It works for USN players becasue they have large fighter squadrons, but IJN don't have this luxury.
Battle Range:
10 hexes I always felt is too far. More often than not your strikes will arrive disjointed and piecemeal. 6 seems to be best, but anything under 8 is good.
Absolute best would one 1 hex, undected
, but i've only had that happen once so far....General hints:
It helps to have a scouting TF of CS ships for detecting enemy carriers.
When entering battle, don't move your CV's around too much. Try and conserve OP points (that means no replenishing too). The more op points the larger and more strikes you can get off.
Also, never send your CV TF's alone to seek battle. Keep a few surface combat, transport or odds and ends TF's around. Helps to break up the enemy strike somewhat..
And it dosn't hurt to keep an eye on the weather.
Groups your CV's by speed. If you want all your TF's to move at the same speed, make sure that the slowest unit of each TF have similar match speeds. The Akagi can move 8 knots faster than the Junyo, so you might want to slow the Akagi TF down with a slower CVL or the Kaga.
If you have multiple CV's following others, dosn't hurt having admirals with similar aggressiveness ratings. Japan has three 'cautious' CV TF commanders AFAIK, and personnaly i've had better luck with them than with the agressive admirals.
CV flight operations shut down when combined SYS and FLT damage cross 50. I don't think FIRE effects flight operations any(?).
In time of war the first casualty is truth. - Boake Carter
Hiya Veer,
Thanks for the very helpful post. I am starting to realize that it's not as easy for the IJN CVs to play "defense" as it is for the USN CVs. As you say, Japanese fighter squadrons aren't as large, and they don't seem to be quite as effective in the CAP role.
I agree that closer range means more effective strikes, but isn't my one clear advantage my longer range? The USN can't shoot at all from 10 hexes away. Of course, only the AI lets me get away with pouncing from 10 hexes; I doubt a human would. And your point is well-taken too: it does me no good to "pounce" from max range if my strikes come in piecemeal.
<< It helps to have a scouting TF of CS ships for detecting enemy carriers. >>
As it happens, I do have a small Surface TF of CS, CL, and DDs "leading" my CVs around, but I'd set my CS float planes to ASW. I don't seem to have any trouble detecting the enemy CVs with my LBA patrols -- Emily's, etc. Do CS planes raise the Detection Level of the enemy CVs to a higher level?
Thanks for the info on SYS + FLT damage. It sounds like I wasn't wrong to send Soryu back to Tokyo with 65 SYS damage.
Thanks for the very helpful post. I am starting to realize that it's not as easy for the IJN CVs to play "defense" as it is for the USN CVs. As you say, Japanese fighter squadrons aren't as large, and they don't seem to be quite as effective in the CAP role.
I agree that closer range means more effective strikes, but isn't my one clear advantage my longer range? The USN can't shoot at all from 10 hexes away. Of course, only the AI lets me get away with pouncing from 10 hexes; I doubt a human would. And your point is well-taken too: it does me no good to "pounce" from max range if my strikes come in piecemeal.
<< It helps to have a scouting TF of CS ships for detecting enemy carriers. >>
As it happens, I do have a small Surface TF of CS, CL, and DDs "leading" my CVs around, but I'd set my CS float planes to ASW. I don't seem to have any trouble detecting the enemy CVs with my LBA patrols -- Emily's, etc. Do CS planes raise the Detection Level of the enemy CVs to a higher level?
Thanks for the info on SYS + FLT damage. It sounds like I wasn't wrong to send Soryu back to Tokyo with 65 SYS damage.
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CapAndGown
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Originally posted by Veer
TF size:
2-3 carriers are ideal. 4 is max. Add to this one CA (Tone class preferably) a CL with radar (if you got it yet) and 6-8 DDs with high AA ratings.
.
I would go with Nachi class. They have the same AAA rating as the Tone's, but their belt armor is 100 versus the 125 for the Tone's. Save the Tone's for surface combat groups.
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CapAndGown
- Posts: 3078
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 10:00 am
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I was wrong, the Tone's do have slightly more AAA than the Nachi's. I would still save them for the surface combat role, however, because of the thicker belt armor. Nachi's are my choice for carrier escorts.
CA Tone
Hi, Many people like the Tone class for CV escorts because they carry 5 float planes (If both are in the same hex you have 10 scouts) This saves the bombers for attack
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
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Admiral DadMan
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I slap together what's available and ring up flank speed...
Seriously, I once previously posted that as IJN I would prefer to fight from 10 hexes (300 Miles). The reasoning behind that was that there would be no 1-step reaction for the TFs, and the US planes would be out-ranged. I have reconsidered.
First of all, battle experience has shown that strikes at extreme range tend to be spotty, piecemeal affairs that the USN CAP chews up and spits out quite easily.
Secondly, before mid-July of 42 (when US TBF Avenger torpedo bombers arrive), the IJN should fight at ranges no greater than 8 hexes and no less than 6 (180 to 240 miles).
The reasoning for this is that the IJN's biggest asset is the B5N Kate Torpedo Bomber.
Beyond 8 hexes, it carries bombs and not torpedoes. Level bombing is much less effective than torpedo delivery.
At 5 hexes, you're in USN TBD torpedo bomber range, but still outside of its 4 hex torpedo delivery range.
Easy to determine against the AI, difficult to figure against an erratic human...
Seriously, I once previously posted that as IJN I would prefer to fight from 10 hexes (300 Miles). The reasoning behind that was that there would be no 1-step reaction for the TFs, and the US planes would be out-ranged. I have reconsidered.
First of all, battle experience has shown that strikes at extreme range tend to be spotty, piecemeal affairs that the USN CAP chews up and spits out quite easily.
Secondly, before mid-July of 42 (when US TBF Avenger torpedo bombers arrive), the IJN should fight at ranges no greater than 8 hexes and no less than 6 (180 to 240 miles).
The reasoning for this is that the IJN's biggest asset is the B5N Kate Torpedo Bomber.
Beyond 8 hexes, it carries bombs and not torpedoes. Level bombing is much less effective than torpedo delivery.
At 5 hexes, you're in USN TBD torpedo bomber range, but still outside of its 4 hex torpedo delivery range.
Easy to determine against the AI, difficult to figure against an erratic human...
Well, part of my problem with CV battles as IJN (in my current game vs the Allied AI, now August '42) is that I'm now outnumbered. I have 4 fleet CVs and 2 CVLs vs. the Allied 6 fleet CVs, each of which carries more planes. I fought another CV battle, and I tried reducing my CAP to around 40% to provide more escorts. I did stop many of his bombers, and a few of mine got through, but on each end of the attack I was outnumbered. Result: 3 hits on 3 of my CVs; no hits on his. <sigh>
I guess one answer is that I should've killed his CVs earlier, while I had the advantage. Another is that I may not have filled up my CVs with land-based fighter squadrons and reinforcements. I suppose I should routinely be putting reinforcements (Vals and Zeroes) on CVs that have room. I don't think Zuik and Shok have *ever* been completely full. Reading Raverdave/Luskan's AAR makes me wonder whether the IJN there has reinforced his CVs' airgroups.
I know it's not exciting to read a combat report of games vs the AI, but here it is anyway, in case anyone is curious. Can anyone offer further diagnosis?
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/03/42
Weather: Thunderstorms
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 41
A6M3 Zero x 7
Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 25
TBD Devastator x 11
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 23 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 7 damaged
TBD Devastator x 13 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 1 damaged
PO1 J.Aihara of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 6
Japanese Ships
CA Haguro
CVL Shoho
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 41
A6M3 Zero x 7
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 8
SBD Dauntless x 26
TBF Avenger x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 19 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 12 damaged
TBF Avenger x 10 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 4 damaged
WO D.Kawasaki of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 8
LT M. Hidaka of CII-1 Daitai is KILLED
Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 1
CV Shokaku
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 39
A6M3 Zero x 7
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7
TBF Avenger x 14
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 4 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 13 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 4 damaged
PO2 K.Kawato of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 8
CPO C.Okano of BII-1 Daitai is KILLED
Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 35
A6M3 Zero x 6
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 28
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 6 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 12 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 23 damaged
LTJG C.Okura of AI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 5
LT K. Okajima of EII-1 Daitai is KILLED
Japanese Ships
DD Ariake
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 29
A6M3 Zero x 6
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 20
SBD Dauntless x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 11 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 3 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 5 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 6 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 8 damaged
PO2 K.Kawato of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 9
LCDR S. Itaya of AI-1 Daitai is KILLED
Japanese Ships
CVL Zuiho
CV Akagi
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 1, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13
A6M3 Zero x 3
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 14
SBD Dauntless x 24
TBD Devastator x 15
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 9 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 2 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 5 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 6 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 11 damaged
TBD Devastator x 4 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 10 damaged
PO2 K.Kawato of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 10
LTJG D.Walton of VF-42 bails out and is RESCUED
Japanese Ships
CVL Zuiho, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Akagi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
A6M3 Zero x 1
Allied aircraft
B-25D Mitchell x 3
no losses
Allied aircraft losses
B-25D Mitchell x 2 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
A6M3 Zero x 1
Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 11
TBF Avenger x 15
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
TBF Avenger x 2 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 11 damaged
PO1 T.Ibusuki of AI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 8
Japanese Ships
AP Nankai Maru
APD 39, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Brazil Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Sazanami
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
A6M3 Zero x 1
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 25
TBD Devastator x 13
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 5 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 2 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 5 damaged
TBD Devastator x 1 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 3 damaged
PO1 C.Kanno of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 6
LT R.Kawato of EIII-1 Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED
Japanese Ships
PG Seikai Maru
AP Hokkai Maru, Torpedo hits 1
PG Nikkai Maru
DD Asanagi
PC Takunan Maru #10
DD Oite, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 19,45
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 48
A6M3 Zero x 20
D3A Val x 36
B5N Kate x 51
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 130
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 51 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 26 destroyed
D3A Val x 32 destroyed
D3A Val x 6 damaged
B5N Kate x 68 destroyed
B5N Kate x 2 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 44 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 23 damaged
LT W. Haas of VF-42 is credited with kill number 10
LT V. McCormack of VF-42 bails out and is RESCUED
Allied Ships
CV Saratoga
CV Lexington
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 19,45
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
D3A Val x 12
B5N Kate x 17
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 93
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 12 destroyed
D3A Val x 12 destroyed
D3A Val x 1 damaged
B5N Kate x 18 destroyed
B5N Kate x 3 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 13 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6 damaged
LTJG E. Zaeske of VF-2 is credited with kill number 9
LT W. Haas of VF-42 is KILLED
Allied Ships
CV Wasp
CV Yorktown
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 19,45
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6
D3A Val x 13
B5N Kate x 15
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 83
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 6 destroyed
D3A Val x 16 destroyed
B5N Kate x 19 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 4 damaged
LTJG E. Zaeske of VF-2 is credited with kill number 10
ENS G.Lawson of VF-71 bails out and is RESCUED
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Gili Gili
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 36143 troops, 467 guns, 27 vehicles
Defending force 28625 troops, 224 guns, 8 vehicles
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 0)
Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0
(This is what got the AI's attention. My clumsy invasion of Gili Gili. Oddly enough, I already own PM. Yes, I bypassed GG and took PM first. Having more trouble with GG!)
PO1 J.Aihara of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 10
Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 458
Guns lost 2
Allied ground losses:
Men lost 819
Guns lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Gili Gili
Allied Bombardment attack
Attacking force 7182 troops, 0 guns, 8 vehicles
Defending force 44434 troops, 497 guns, 27 vehicles
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess one answer is that I should've killed his CVs earlier, while I had the advantage. Another is that I may not have filled up my CVs with land-based fighter squadrons and reinforcements. I suppose I should routinely be putting reinforcements (Vals and Zeroes) on CVs that have room. I don't think Zuik and Shok have *ever* been completely full. Reading Raverdave/Luskan's AAR makes me wonder whether the IJN there has reinforced his CVs' airgroups.
I know it's not exciting to read a combat report of games vs the AI, but here it is anyway, in case anyone is curious. Can anyone offer further diagnosis?
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/03/42
Weather: Thunderstorms
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 41
A6M3 Zero x 7
Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 25
TBD Devastator x 11
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 23 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 7 damaged
TBD Devastator x 13 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 1 damaged
PO1 J.Aihara of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 6
Japanese Ships
CA Haguro
CVL Shoho
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 41
A6M3 Zero x 7
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 8
SBD Dauntless x 26
TBF Avenger x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 19 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 12 damaged
TBF Avenger x 10 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 4 damaged
WO D.Kawasaki of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 8
LT M. Hidaka of CII-1 Daitai is KILLED
Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 1
CV Shokaku
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 39
A6M3 Zero x 7
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7
TBF Avenger x 14
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 4 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 13 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 4 damaged
PO2 K.Kawato of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 8
CPO C.Okano of BII-1 Daitai is KILLED
Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 35
A6M3 Zero x 6
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 28
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 6 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 12 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 23 damaged
LTJG C.Okura of AI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 5
LT K. Okajima of EII-1 Daitai is KILLED
Japanese Ships
DD Ariake
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 29
A6M3 Zero x 6
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 20
SBD Dauntless x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 11 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 3 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 5 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 6 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 8 damaged
PO2 K.Kawato of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 9
LCDR S. Itaya of AI-1 Daitai is KILLED
Japanese Ships
CVL Zuiho
CV Akagi
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 1, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13
A6M3 Zero x 3
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 14
SBD Dauntless x 24
TBD Devastator x 15
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 9 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 2 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 5 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 6 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 11 damaged
TBD Devastator x 4 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 10 damaged
PO2 K.Kawato of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 10
LTJG D.Walton of VF-42 bails out and is RESCUED
Japanese Ships
CVL Zuiho, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Akagi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
A6M3 Zero x 1
Allied aircraft
B-25D Mitchell x 3
no losses
Allied aircraft losses
B-25D Mitchell x 2 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
A6M3 Zero x 1
Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 11
TBF Avenger x 15
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
TBF Avenger x 2 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 11 damaged
PO1 T.Ibusuki of AI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 8
Japanese Ships
AP Nankai Maru
APD 39, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Brazil Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Sazanami
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
A6M3 Zero x 1
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 25
TBD Devastator x 13
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 5 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 2 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 5 damaged
TBD Devastator x 1 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 3 damaged
PO1 C.Kanno of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 6
LT R.Kawato of EIII-1 Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED
Japanese Ships
PG Seikai Maru
AP Hokkai Maru, Torpedo hits 1
PG Nikkai Maru
DD Asanagi
PC Takunan Maru #10
DD Oite, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 19,45
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 48
A6M3 Zero x 20
D3A Val x 36
B5N Kate x 51
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 130
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 51 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 26 destroyed
D3A Val x 32 destroyed
D3A Val x 6 damaged
B5N Kate x 68 destroyed
B5N Kate x 2 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 44 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 23 damaged
LT W. Haas of VF-42 is credited with kill number 10
LT V. McCormack of VF-42 bails out and is RESCUED
Allied Ships
CV Saratoga
CV Lexington
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 19,45
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
D3A Val x 12
B5N Kate x 17
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 93
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 12 destroyed
D3A Val x 12 destroyed
D3A Val x 1 damaged
B5N Kate x 18 destroyed
B5N Kate x 3 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 13 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6 damaged
LTJG E. Zaeske of VF-2 is credited with kill number 9
LT W. Haas of VF-42 is KILLED
Allied Ships
CV Wasp
CV Yorktown
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 19,45
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6
D3A Val x 13
B5N Kate x 15
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 83
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 6 destroyed
D3A Val x 16 destroyed
B5N Kate x 19 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 4 damaged
LTJG E. Zaeske of VF-2 is credited with kill number 10
ENS G.Lawson of VF-71 bails out and is RESCUED
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Gili Gili
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 36143 troops, 467 guns, 27 vehicles
Defending force 28625 troops, 224 guns, 8 vehicles
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 0)
Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0
(This is what got the AI's attention. My clumsy invasion of Gili Gili. Oddly enough, I already own PM. Yes, I bypassed GG and took PM first. Having more trouble with GG!)
PO1 J.Aihara of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 10
Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 458
Guns lost 2
Allied ground losses:
Men lost 819
Guns lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Gili Gili
Allied Bombardment attack
Attacking force 7182 troops, 0 guns, 8 vehicles
Defending force 44434 troops, 497 guns, 27 vehicles
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say you're doing just about all you can do :^(
My only last suggestion is that if you got a Yagumo class DD or a CL that has radar (IJN has a few), put THAT in your TF. Radar allows you to apply (usually) 100% of you CAP setting on every attack (vs. about 60% of whatever you select without radar. Say you have 80 fighters available. If your CAP is set at 70% without radar, only about 60% x 70% = 42% = 33 fighters are actually going to be in the right spot.
But having radar actually will allow you to LOWER you CAP a little (thus giving you more for escorts), because it's going to increase the numbers fighters that actually meet the enemy. In the above example, with radar, you could actually set your CAP lower than the 60% you had previously, to say 50%, and still have more than you would have without radar. 80 fighters at 50% = 40 fighters, giving you 7 more for escorts.
-F-
My only last suggestion is that if you got a Yagumo class DD or a CL that has radar (IJN has a few), put THAT in your TF. Radar allows you to apply (usually) 100% of you CAP setting on every attack (vs. about 60% of whatever you select without radar. Say you have 80 fighters available. If your CAP is set at 70% without radar, only about 60% x 70% = 42% = 33 fighters are actually going to be in the right spot.
But having radar actually will allow you to LOWER you CAP a little (thus giving you more for escorts), because it's going to increase the numbers fighters that actually meet the enemy. In the above example, with radar, you could actually set your CAP lower than the 60% you had previously, to say 50%, and still have more than you would have without radar. 80 fighters at 50% = 40 fighters, giving you 7 more for escorts.
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
Too late now but...
If you're going up against 6 USN CVs with 4 IJN CVs+2 CVLs, I'd consider biting the bullet and leaving only 10-20% CAP behind (more for harrassment than defence). Even 0% could be considered. I'd only do this normally if
a) I'm desperate (maybe drunk too).
b) My naval attack a/c are still good quality.
c) The enemy strike a/c are still at their starting experience levels (ie, they haven't spent weeks gaining experience hitting poorly defended ground targets).
d) The engagement range is outside that of allied torp bombers (or expected to be).
e) The battle is expected to occur within 1 to 2 turns of a size 3 friendly port.
Obviously, d and e will require you to ensure that your TFs don't do a reaction move.
While it's normally worth it (in early games) to hang around in port and boost your squadron's numbers, be really careful with piling on extra squadrons. I once spent ages reorganising my squadrons to get the max CV load. Thinking that earlier losses to CV squadrons have created the needed room, I whacked on some of the smaller Zero/Val/Kate squadrons and headed off to battle. Trouble is, in my travels, I stopped by a port and oops, the depleted squadrons replacement a/c turned up, rendering some of my CVs inoperable through overcrowding. You only do it once.
If you're going up against 6 USN CVs with 4 IJN CVs+2 CVLs, I'd consider biting the bullet and leaving only 10-20% CAP behind (more for harrassment than defence). Even 0% could be considered. I'd only do this normally if
a) I'm desperate (maybe drunk too).
b) My naval attack a/c are still good quality.
c) The enemy strike a/c are still at their starting experience levels (ie, they haven't spent weeks gaining experience hitting poorly defended ground targets).
d) The engagement range is outside that of allied torp bombers (or expected to be).
e) The battle is expected to occur within 1 to 2 turns of a size 3 friendly port.
Obviously, d and e will require you to ensure that your TFs don't do a reaction move.
guess one answer is that I should've killed his CVs earlier, while I had the advantage. Another is that I may not have filled up my CVs with land-based fighter squadrons and reinforcements. I suppose I should routinely be putting reinforcements (Vals and Zeroes) on CVs that have room. I don't think Zuik and Shok have *ever* been completely full. Reading Raverdave/Luskan's AAR makes me wonder whether the IJN there has reinforced his CVs' airgroups.
While it's normally worth it (in early games) to hang around in port and boost your squadron's numbers, be really careful with piling on extra squadrons. I once spent ages reorganising my squadrons to get the max CV load. Thinking that earlier losses to CV squadrons have created the needed room, I whacked on some of the smaller Zero/Val/Kate squadrons and headed off to battle. Trouble is, in my travels, I stopped by a port and oops, the depleted squadrons replacement a/c turned up, rendering some of my CVs inoperable through overcrowding. You only do it once.
Have no fear,
drink more beer.
drink more beer.
<< rendering some of my CVs inoperable through overcrowding. You only do it once. >>
LoL, Drongo, so I gather! I haven't had my one overcrowding snafu yet, so I guess I'm due. :rolleyes: What's frustrating is that it takes so long just for the "inherent" squadrons to fill up. Shokaku and Zuikaku start scenario 17 under-staffed; to fill em up, you've got to spend a couple of weeks in port.
Thanks for the advice on when to "go for broke" with very low CAP. In this case, I wasn't desperate or drunk, and I probably should've just fled the scene. My CVs had been covering landings at Gili Gili which had been pretty much completed. Part of the problem was that there were thunderstorms all week, and even with all my search assets working, I didn't spot the Allied CVs until they were 5 hexes away. 5 hexes! To make matters worse, the Allied CVs reacted to *me*, coming within 4 hexes, and thus exposing me to the brunt of USN airpower. (Mine didn't react because I had them following a Surface TF.)
The truth is, if I'd been playing a human, I wouldn't have left my CVs around Gili for so long. Playing the AI instills bad habits; you start *expecting* it to do dumb things.
LoL, Drongo, so I gather! I haven't had my one overcrowding snafu yet, so I guess I'm due. :rolleyes: What's frustrating is that it takes so long just for the "inherent" squadrons to fill up. Shokaku and Zuikaku start scenario 17 under-staffed; to fill em up, you've got to spend a couple of weeks in port.
Thanks for the advice on when to "go for broke" with very low CAP. In this case, I wasn't desperate or drunk, and I probably should've just fled the scene. My CVs had been covering landings at Gili Gili which had been pretty much completed. Part of the problem was that there were thunderstorms all week, and even with all my search assets working, I didn't spot the Allied CVs until they were 5 hexes away. 5 hexes! To make matters worse, the Allied CVs reacted to *me*, coming within 4 hexes, and thus exposing me to the brunt of USN airpower. (Mine didn't react because I had them following a Surface TF.)
The truth is, if I'd been playing a human, I wouldn't have left my CVs around Gili for so long. Playing the AI instills bad habits; you start *expecting* it to do dumb things.
Originally posted by Grotius
I guess one answer is that I should've killed his CVs earlier, while I had the advantage. Another is that I may not have filled up my CVs with land-based fighter squadrons and reinforcements. I suppose I should routinely be putting reinforcements (Vals and Zeroes) on CVs that have room. I don't think Zuik and Shok have *ever* been completely full. Reading Raverdave/Luskan's AAR makes me wonder whether the IJN there has reinforced his CVs' airgroups.
Ahh, and now we come to the cardinal issue: as IJN you gotto gotto wittle down the US CV's early. Attack in early May (yes, your Shok and Zuik are understrength, but the enemy is even worse off). Attack again in June - when you have 2 more CV's, plus the surviours of the first. Attack again in July - with all 6 CVs, plus 4 CVLs. The odds, plus experience is in your favour. The IJN gets his CV's in bunches, while the USN usually gets them 1 at a time at 1-2 week intervals.
All in all I think you did rather well.
4 CV's (you can discount the CVLs) vs 6 CV's is well - suicide. You'll notice that the USN was able to put up a CAP of 130, plus send an equivalent number on escort. You on the other hand could only keep 50 on CAP and some 80 on escort.
That with the fact the USN has some good pilots by August.... you can see that the IJN has no choice but to attack early.Early hint: In early May you can fit that squad of Claudes on one of your fleet CV's - they really aren't all that bad in the CAP role.
Some people unload a CVL's squads and load up another full squad of zero's onto her also.
In time of war the first casualty is truth. - Boake Carter
Posted by Grotius
All is not lost. Just remember, the AI is stupider than we are (well, we hope so anyway).
As an aside, I always practice new carrier tactics using the "Battle of the Coral Sea" scenario. It starts out pretty close to most of the main scenarios as well. It's balanced, a lot quicker to play and the AI seems to always give you a CV battle. Playing it head to head (both sides) gives you a good feel for CV combat in the PBEM games, as well.
I've yet to find a carrier tactic that I'm totally satisfied with so the scenario will still see a fair bit of use from me.
Cheers
Thanks for the advice on when to "go for broke" with very low CAP. In this case, I wasn't desperate or drunk, and I probably should've just fled the scene.
All is not lost. Just remember, the AI is stupider than we are (well, we hope so anyway).
As an aside, I always practice new carrier tactics using the "Battle of the Coral Sea" scenario. It starts out pretty close to most of the main scenarios as well. It's balanced, a lot quicker to play and the AI seems to always give you a CV battle. Playing it head to head (both sides) gives you a good feel for CV combat in the PBEM games, as well.
I've yet to find a carrier tactic that I'm totally satisfied with so the scenario will still see a fair bit of use from me.
Cheers
Have no fear,
drink more beer.
drink more beer.
One point that is often overlooked and IMHO one of the most important considerations is naval search.
The IJN is initally better off than the USN because of the longer range of it's search aircraft. The USN float planes are abysmal, with the best asset being PBYs and 4E bombers. (No real ability to operate them forward early until the AVs show up).
Operating at the edge of you land based search envelope as the USN during bad weather is a recipe for disaster. I lost a carrier in PBEM game when an IJN carrier TF "popped out of nowhere"(7-8 hexes away) during thunderstorms and sank the Yorktown. I never got a strike in, as I had not really got a good spot on the enemy TF (rolled in behind a front).
I bring that up as I usually have 2-4 SBD sqns set to Naval Search. Be concious of your land based naval search coverage and have adequate organic search asets in your TF to ensure "good" spotting of the enemy CV TFs.
The IJN is initally better off than the USN because of the longer range of it's search aircraft. The USN float planes are abysmal, with the best asset being PBYs and 4E bombers. (No real ability to operate them forward early until the AVs show up).
Operating at the edge of you land based search envelope as the USN during bad weather is a recipe for disaster. I lost a carrier in PBEM game when an IJN carrier TF "popped out of nowhere"(7-8 hexes away) during thunderstorms and sank the Yorktown. I never got a strike in, as I had not really got a good spot on the enemy TF (rolled in behind a front).
I bring that up as I usually have 2-4 SBD sqns set to Naval Search. Be concious of your land based naval search coverage and have adequate organic search asets in your TF to ensure "good" spotting of the enemy CV TFs.
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC