DBB 28C. Co-prosperity sphere of happiness: Jorge (J) vs Revthought (A)

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I am planning to start a new PBEM game against Revthought. He is new to the game and I am looking for a friendly match, thus we are both in agreement on making this a relatively historical, slow tempo game. My main focus will be in building a logistics "happy empire" rather than invading the entire map, hence the title.

Still working on the HRs. but some key points are:

Fundamentals:
This is a slow paced, historical game. Only historically plausible invasions.

No Sir Robin, full fledged retreat.

Victory points are directional only.

Quiet China during the entire war. We still need to finalize the rules but the idea is that China will remain relatively static during the entire war. Slow tempo offensives, a Chinese redoubt and no Chinese appetite to steamroll once supply is available


Settings:
DaBabes-C
One day turns
Scen 28
Combat animations ON
Extended map and stacking limits
PDU OFF and Realistic RnD ON
Non historical first turn, December surprise, faulty USN torpedoes, allied damage control, FOW
Advanced Weather OFF
Fixed Reinforcements

House Rules:
* Player must pay PP to move restricted units across borders. exceptions:
- US-Canada and Manchuria-Korea borders can be ignored
- Thai troops can move to Burma and Malaya
- Restricted Chinese troops that historically operated in Burma/ India can cross borders without paying PP

* No partial parachute deployments (i.e. one unit, one target)

* No carrier hunting on the first 2 turns

* Only submarine designed FPs on Japanese subs

* Maximum squadron resize is 45 planes

* Purchase of restricted units at full price: unit must be at no least than 80% TOE and the selected HQ shall be the most expensive: no air HQ trick

* No transfers between off map ports... use transports to move between off map bases. Or use rail to move from East Coast to West Coast then board a ship.

* No full speed transit off map

Night bombing port/airfield:
- 50 planes/target for the entire war.

Aerial mining:
- 50 planes/target only at night for the entire war.

4E Bombing:
- No 4E low level bombing (naval or ground)

Industry bombing:
- No light industry bombing, neither side (Use fire bombing = manpower instead)
- No strategic bombing in or from China (use fire bombing = manpower instead)

Picket ships:
- Must be warships of at least 1000 tons

No fuel loaded in xAKs/ AKs, other than the small organic capacity of some large xAKs

Altitude of CAP/sweep:
20k in 41-42
25k in 43
30k in 44
35k in 45
open in 46

First turn:
No new TFs for Allies but existing may move
No air groups changing location, but can change CAP settings
No crazy deep "*TF" moves: no Mersing, no deep invasions, nothing historically dubious.


From now on Revthought not allowed

[Jorge_Stanbury]

i would be interested to know if this rule makes sense or if you think it is too restrictive

Day bombing
150 planes/target in 41-42
200 planes/target in 43
300 planes in 44
no limit afterwards
no restrictions for CV strikes

[Andav]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

i would be interested to know if this rule makes sense or if you think it is too restrictive

Day bombing
150 planes/target in 41-42
200 planes/target in 43
300 planes in 44
no limit afterwards
no restrictions for CV strikes

Personally, I think this is unnecessary and too restrictive.

Wa

[Lowpe]

Personally, all I think you nee do is:

Let us play a historical game

Let us play with a very, very slow, almost quiet China.

PP to cross borders except where reasonable.

Nothing gamey,if you have to think about it, it is gamey.

[Yaab]

Jorge Stanbury, I would advocate strategic bombing of HI and manpower in China. HI represents Chinese arsenals, historically present in Chungking. Even if you wipe out all Chinese HI (which is unlikely), auto-supply and LI will be enough to feed the army.

What about no fuel in xAKs rule?

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I tend to agree, and after all in my current PBEM against Prester John we both had gone off the rules a few times, actually some rules I didn't remember existed and no big deal; which means we are really a good match in terms of playing style.

But the problem is; it is a long game, and we are not mind readers. I don't think anybody here is trying to cheat, not in this years long game.
But what I think is reasonable might not be reasonable for somebody else, "gamey" is a subjective term, open to multiple interpretations. The risk is that one of us might feel cheated and then the bitterness and then the game will go down the drain.
With some clear rules, we can at least have some guiding principles to look at when we are in doubt.

That said, I think it is right to drop the air bombing rule; too restrictive and helps Japan too much

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: Yaab


Jorge Stanbury, I would advocate strategic bombing of HI and manpower in China. HI represents Chinese arsenals, historically present in Chungking. Even if you wipe out all Chinese HI (which is unlikely), auto-supply and LI will be enough to feed the army.

What about no fuel in xAKs rule?

Let me ask him [:)]
as this might be more a problem for the Allies

and fire bombing is OK

[jwolf]

Victory points are directional only.

Sorry for being thick, but what does this mean? [&:]

[Jorge_Stanbury]

sorry for my bad english:

it plainly means, that victory points give bragging rights, that is it all. There won't be a push for achieving auto victory

[Jorge_Stanbury]

These are my initial ideas for convoys:


The situation is very clear: there is excess resources stored in Hokkaido, Sakhalin, Manchukuo, Korea and China that needs to be moved ASAP to Japan,

Manchukuo and China are easy, because Shanghai and Pt Arthur are big ports. It is a bit more challenging for Hokkaido and Sakhalin, as their ports are much smaller. Initially I will need to use multiple ports. But once Hakkodate and particularly Ominato are maximized, I will start cutting routes and use bigger ships.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

In terms of cargo ships; I start the war with 997 ships, and most of them will not be needed, therefore, other than those really close to completion, I will cancel cargo ship production.



Yusen A/ S
Because of Japan's poor amphibious capabilities, I will most likely convert them all to AK-t.

St-A
A very good, fuel efficient ship... but not really needed

Lima
6 will become AKE, the rest will likely be used to move supply to big ports. Not really great in DBB-C because it is slow and very few ports can unload it in one day

Yusen N / Kyushu
Will be used for long range hauls. Singapore-Fukuoka comes to mind

Aden
Workhorse of the fleet, will mostly move resource from Hokkaido. Some will be converted to xAK-t

Huisimi
This is the ideal xAK-t. as it carry over 1,000 troops and cruiser speed is 12knots. 4 will be converted to AR once available

St-B
nice freighter, but not needed

Akasi
4 will convert to ADs. The rest will likely be used on Shanghai-Nagasaki. or supplies

Toho / Ehime
Also not a lot to do with them, will likely move supplies

Ansyu-C
All will become PB... a gas guzzling, huge PB... but at least can make 12 knots. Moreover, it has enough endurance to do a round trip from Singapore to HI.

St-C
All will become TKs, I don't know yet how many more to build, if at all

Miyati / Kasu-D / Daigen
These will take care of small ports, as needed, most will likely end in the outlying, less developed regions of the empire.

St-F
not needed

Kujira/ Hachi
Kujira is surprisingly fuel efficient, but 184 cargo capacity is really nothing... so they will all become xAMc and/ or PB later on (1943)

Tosu
All to ACM or PB

Kiso E
In the standard game most people makes them ACMs, but this option is not allowed in DaBabes
So all will become PB.. or maybe a few AGs? this is another gas guzzler. 4.5 fuel per hex [:(] plus this one is slow.
I think I will use them to mob submarines: I will spread them across major ports, and keep them disbanded.. as soon as a submarine is spotted, I will send them to harass

Kudai
Is this a surfboard?? I don't know what to do with this. I think I will send them all to the South Pacific and use them for risky operations

[Jorge_Stanbury]

And my not so original ideas for auxiliaries, PBs, ACMs and AMcs:


As mentioned before, only Tosu can become ACM in DaBabes, I think I will need at least ~70 if not more.
More PBs will be converted if needed

AMcs: I will be building a lot, but just because there are not a lot better alternatives for xAKLs Hachi and Kujira

[GetAssista]

Another Japanese AAR, yay![:)]

Does DaBabes drop TK convertibility of St-A/B? You listed them as not really needed, and them are potential large fast tankers that are always in demand.
Are there any xAKs with fuel capacity in DB? They are useful for picking up that trickle of oil from Sakhalin and Hokkaido and free up real tankers for DEI and fuel transport

[Jorge_Stanbury]

That is a very good/ valid point. as far as I know they can still convert, but I haven't yet analyzed how many tanker I have vs. how many I need.
What I noticed early on was that there is a significantly greater need of smaller tankers because most oil bases (Palembang, Tarakan, Miri, etc) are small and cannot be built above something like level 4
This is why St-C is the most useful, short haul, tanker.
For the long trip, I might have enough already considering the queued tankers... I will check soon

With regards to xAKs with organic (small) fuel capacity. Yes they remain, but they are usually big/ fast so I prefer to keep them in longer haul routes. Besides, with the small ports available, they would take another full loading day which is not desirable in Sakhalin. Once the excess of oil is taken care of, one small TK is all that is need

[Jorge_Stanbury]

These are the tankers/ oilers:


Oilers
Type-N TL AO / Type-1 TL AO
These 7, fast oilers will likely follow the KB. At least during the offensive phase. Then likely haul fuel from Balikpapan to Truk
The idea to keep them always close to KB

Ashizuri / Sunosaki
These 4 late war additions look optimized for front line service, as they are relatively fast and well armed (for an AO).

Shiretoko
These are very helpful oilers. I like to keep them close to the major advance, as a sort off mobile gas station for the many destroyer/ cruiser TFs. This is very important for Japan considering the low endurance of most of its destroyers.

Juyusen YO
I would like more of these yard oilers. I plan to put a couple on each major/ busy port to reduce congestion.

Tankers
Tonan Whaler
This is the best tanker, I hope I could build more. In addition to its huge liquid capacity, it can even carry resources. These will certainly get lots of escorts.

Type N TL
Fastest tanker, can even be used as a proxy oiler for the KB (assuming I have a base or dot hex nearby). They can be converted to AOs, but I don't think it makes sense, I prefer the bigger fuel capacity

Type 1 TL
Another fast tanker, will likely work the Singapore to Fukuoka route

Type 2 TL
Great fuel afficiency, I will build them all.

Manzyu / Type 1 TM
A bit slow, might work the secondary routes

St-AT TK
Poor fuel efficiency, slow... I don't know if I should build them. Good news is that they are coming much later on, I don't need to decide yet.

St-BT TK
Poor fuel efficiency, slow... but they might load at Palembang in one turn... I would need to investigate more about it, later

St-C
Absolutely critical for Japan, as they are perfectly sized for Palembang, Tarakan, Balikpapan, Miri, etc.

Type-1 TS
This will take care of all small ports and until St-C is available, also Palembang.

St-ETd TK
Too slow, too small, not fuel efficient. Not needed

[Bif1961]

Looking forward to your AAR as the Japanese player. As to the limit of number of planes on any given attack, doesn't that come down to the ability to coordinate? I wouldn't limit it and let weather and fate decide.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

These are the tankers/ oilers:


Oilers
Type-N TL AO / Type-1 TL AO
These 7, fast oilers will likely follow the KB. At least during the offensive phase. Then likely haul fuel from Balikpapan to Truk
The idea to keep them always close to KB

Ashizuri / Sunosaki
These 4 late war additions look optimized for front line service, as they are relatively fast and well armed (for an AO).

Shiretoko
These are very helpful oilers. I like to keep them close to the major advance, as a sort off mobile gas station for the many destroyer/ cruiser TFs. This is very important for Japan considering the low endurance of most of its destroyers.

Juyusen YO
I would like more of these yard oilers. I plan to put a couple on each major/ busy port to reduce congestion.

Tankers
Tonan Whaler
This is the best tanker, I hope I could build more. In addition to its huge liquid capacity, it can even carry resources. These will certainly get lots of escorts.

Type N TL
Fastest tanker, can even be used as a proxy oiler for the KB (assuming I have a base or dot hex nearby). They can be converted to AOs, but I don't think it makes sense, I prefer the bigger fuel capacity

Type 1 TL
Another fast tanker, will likely work the Singapore to Fukuoka route

Type 2 TL
Great fuel afficiency, I will build them all.

Manzyu / Type 1 TM
A bit slow, might work the secondary routes

St-AT TK
Poor fuel efficiency, slow... I don't know if I should build them. Good news is that they are coming much later on, I don't need to decide yet.

St-BT TK
Poor fuel efficiency, slow... but they might load at Palembang in one turn... I would need to investigate more about it, later

St-C
Absolutely critical for Japan, as they are perfectly sized for Palembang, Tarakan, Balikpapan, Miri, etc.

Type-1 TS
This will take care of all small ports and until St-C is available, also Palembang.

St-ETd TK
Too slow, too small, not fuel efficient. Not needed

I'm really careful with these ships in terms of which ones I use. Some of them are real fuel pigs, so I either beach them or use them very specifically.
Shiretoko/Sunasaki for example ... not very efficient. I'm careful with how many hexes they ever move.

Last time I checked the TM's were more efficient than any of the ST types and are sized to work as feeders. I use the TL types for all of my longer haul fuel. Tonans are used on the longest routes with absolute best protection as they are irreplaceable.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Shiretoko should mostly remain at port. But in my AI games, I always use them early war. It really helps to have fuel available nearby. Once conquest phase is finished, they might remain at port.
The other 2 classes look like a hybrid between a destroyer and a tanker. I bet it was not a great idea.

TMs are the 3rd best in fuel efficiency, after Tonan and Type-2 TL. I made a mistake with regards to Palembang; I thought TMs could not fully load in one day there because of port level 4; they actually can due to refinery/ oil loading bonus. Thus, they will be the feeder from Palembang to Singapore. No need to use TS or St-C there. That said Miri, Tarakan and all other smaller bases will need them. This is good news because I will not need to build as many St-C as I was envisioning or use too many Type-1 TS

I will update this once I have conquered the SRA. Certainly St-A and St-B look less and less desirable, unless, of course, losses are severe.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Shiretoko should mostly remain at port. But in my AI games, I always use them early war. It really helps to have fuel available nearby. Once conquest phase is finished, they might remain at port.
The other 2 classes look like a hybrid between a destroyer and a tanker. I bet it was not a great idea.

TMs are the 3rd best in fuel efficiency, after Tonan and Type-2 TL. I made a mistake with regards to Palembang; I thought TMs could not fully load in one day there because of port level 4; they actually can due to refinery/ oil loading bonus. Thus, they will be the feeder from Palembang to Singapore. No need to use TS or St-C there. That said Miri, Tarakan and all other smaller bases will need them. This is good news because I will not need to build as many St-C as I was envisioning or use too many Type-1 TS

I will update this once I have conquered the SRA. Certainly St-A and St-B look less and less desirable, unless, of course, losses are severe.

Much closer to what I do as well, if that means anything. [;)]

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Yes it does [:)]

thanks a lot