kelly and ryan

Ismael · Post by **Ismael** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:53 pm

in two of my favorite war movies, kelly's heroes and saving private ryan, there are tigers! actual tigers! not like in those lesser movies where the tigers are played by pattons or pershings or even shermans (yipes!). but wait a minute...arnt the turrests too far forward? but the superstructure andthe turret and the gun look real. wait! look at the bogies, no overlapping wheels but pairs of road wheels instead! and the tracks are wide for a tiger. wehat is this? are these just good look-alikes? what are they? are they t34s?
kudos to these movies, in any case, for atleast going through the trouble to make them LOOK like tigers!

Fabs · Post by **Fabs** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:05 pm

They were certainly not Tigers in Kelly's heroes! The Shermans were real enough, though. I don't believe that there is a fully functional Tiger tank left in the world.

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Fabs

Hauptmann6 · Post by **Hauptmann6** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:28 pm

AFAIK they are T34s with excellent vismods.

If you want to see real old tanks in a movie, get Winter War, it is a Finnish movie that has REAL T26s!!!

Haupt

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:00 pm

I don't think any of them are left now but the Syrians sent a BN of old Panthers against the Golan Heights in "73" without infantry support they were wasted. Israel returned favor by attacking with unsupported M-48's (they were wasted) Syria purchased the Panthers from Spain in the 1950's.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:02 pm

Excellent remakes of Tigers, but alas, they are T-34s. In fact, they had an HBO special showing how they had been remodeled.

Look at the bogie wheels of the "Tiger" in SPR. They are T-34 wheels. That part they did not change.

They are close enough, however!

Wild Bill

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:21 pm

Wild Bill: But aren't the Tiger and T34 suspension basically the same (looking at the wheels)? Or is that the Panther that is similar to the T34?

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:03 am

IIRC there is at least one functional Tiger I in France (Brits are restoring theirs to operable condition). The story I heard was the French vehicle was under consideration for use in SPR but the museum was reluctant to release and risk shipping it to Ireland.
The Tiger I has a prominent front drive sprocket, and an interleaved torsion-bar suspension, very advanced for its time though apparently a bear to maintain. The T34 has a "classic" Christie single-bogie suspension and a much smaller drive sprocket. But the mods are very well done; one has to look closely to see that they aren't really Tigers. The Panther used the same basic suspension as the Tiger, although I believe fewer bogies.
BTW, the Syrians had PzIVJs not Panthers. FWIW the French army used Tiger IIs post-war; as they were replaced they were used on the ranges as targets.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:50 am

Hey Charles, I gotta go look now. I've built enough models of them, I should know. Hold on...No they are different. WB

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

rexmonday · Post by **rexmonday** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 5:10 am

Saving Private Ryan anecdote number 1:
my sister was down in Dublin one day doing some shopping, and turned the corner to see a German Staff car, a couple of halftracks and the front of one of the buildings covered in swastikas, all guarded by mean looking stormtroopers.... guess what was going on there that day? I can only imagine how weird it must have felt for her to barrel into it all like that....

rexmonday · Post by **rexmonday** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 5:13 am

What happened to the last Tiger?

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 3:00 pm

Wild Bill: The wheels are somewhat similar, and I knew one of their tank's suspension was modeled after the T34. Have a look at the PZ38 series, it looks quite identical to the T34 wheel setup.

Hauptmann6 · Post by **Hauptmann6** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 5:04 pm

The T34 and the 38t both used the Christe suspention system. It was designed by an American in the late 20s early 30s. It was a very good design allowing for a fast tank but due to buget restraints the US army never used it. As to it being modeled on the 34, the 34 wasn't designed until after the 38 was and was highly secret until the start of the war.

HTH

Haupt

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 6:54 pm

Haupt: That makes perfect sense to me, but it makes you wonder how some of these historians get such an obvious fact wrong. Whatever tank I heard mentioned, I always heard as being modeled after the T34 suspension-wise, and a brief overview on my part, produced the PZ38 as being the one they were likely talking about, though they may had been talking about something which I haven't mentioned, though Tiger/Panther seems to be always the direction that comparisons take in relation to the T34.

Hauptmann6 · Post by **Hauptmann6** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 10:27 pm

The Panther and Tiger were developed after contact with the 34. And the Panther uses many of the features of the 34. But the suspention system is different. The german designs being much more compicated and hard to work on. Although on the Tiger and Tigger II it was needed to help with weight distribution(as I have always read it).

Haupt

Rickenbacker · Post by **Rickenbacker** » Sun Oct 15, 2000 3:01 am

Originally posted by Hauptmann6:

If you want to see real old tanks in a movie, get Winter War, it is a Finnish movie that has REAL T26s!!!

I can't recommend this movie enough if you want a good, gritty war flick. Check out the excellent airplane models as well (I thought they'd restored Sturmoviks and I-16's, but it's all models, even the scenes with live actors

.

My favorite moments:

Our hero is attacked by dive bombers in the middle of a field, prompting him to scream "Leave me alone! No one here but me!".

Same guy is approached by some punks on a train, they're heading out to the front at Taipale, he's heading home from it.
Punks: "Drink to the heroes of Taipale!"
Matti: "Taipales' heroes are all dead."

Great movie, great lines

.

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Mats 'Rickenbacker' Nylund
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rickenbacker@innocent.com

tacrews61 · Post by **tacrews61** » Sun Oct 15, 2000 7:21 am

OK, we already have a Private Ryan scenario, how about a Kelly's Heros scenario? I have started on one but lack the experience in SPWAW to do a bang up job of it.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sun Oct 15, 2000 8:26 pm

I'm trying to get a copy of the movie so as to review it and perhaps do one. Or even a little mini-campaign perhaps..WB

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Toey · Post by **Toey** » Sun Oct 15, 2000 11:44 pm

A mini campaign would be great

1)A fight at the mine field
2)Oddballs tanks attack at the train lines
3)The battle at the river crossing
4)The final attack on the town!!

We could call Murphy for some of board arty!!!

Cool!

[This message has been edited by Toey (edited October 15, 2000).]

Ismael · Post by **Ismael** » Mon Oct 16, 2000 2:21 am

a kelly's heroes campaign! what a terriffic idea! only one victory objective: the gold. BUT: the whole thing of the movie was luring the german tiger commander. how can this be implemented in the game? because kelly's heroes is not just a battle, it is historical parody. (can this be modelled?)

...but a closely contended small-battle campaign by itself would, i think, be great!!!

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Mon Oct 16, 2000 7:34 am

We can try!

Wild Bill

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games