Don't Hit That Esc Key!!! - Big Problem

wie201 · Post by **wie201** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:11 pm

Now that I have your attention.

I have a game as Japanese, scenario 17, started with version 2.20. I loaded my turn as usual, and watched the movie. I watched it again to verify something, and hit the esc key several times to get through the events I did not need to see again. Guess what. The results changed.

No, I do not believe that this is fog of war. My ships that were sunk before are now afloat. Ships that I should have sunk (and sunk the first time) also remain afloat. Not all the results are different, but the system damage from my subs changed.

I re-loaded the game to verify. Below are the two combat reports.

Here is the first one I loaded normally:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Sub attack near Rabaul at 21,28

Japanese Ships
DD Asanagi, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Shokaku
CA Kako
DD Akebono

Allied Ships
SS S-38, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Rennell Island at 38,45

Japanese Ships
SS I-21, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
AP Harry Lee, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Worden

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Rennell Island at 38,45

Japanese Ships
SS I-29

Allied Ships
AV Thornton, Shell hits 20, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Rennell Island at 38,45

Japanese Ships
SS I-29

Allied Ships
AP Harry Lee, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Worden

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Rennell Island at 38,45

Japanese Ships
SS I-29

Allied Ships
AV Thornton, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the one I got after hitting the esc key

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Sub attack near Rabaul at 21,28

Japanese Ships
DD Asanagi, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Shokaku
CA Kako
DD Akebono

Allied Ships
SS S-38, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Rennell Island at 38,45

Japanese Ships
SS I-21, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
AP Harry Lee, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Worden

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Rennell Island at 38,45

Japanese Ships
SS I-29

Allied Ships
AV Thornton, Shell hits 11, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Rennell Island at 38,45

Japanese Ships
SS I-29

Allied Ships
AV Thornton, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the second replay, the Asanagi did not sink yet, and could possibly make Rabaul. Also, the Harry Lee survived.

Further, when I hit the esc key, my sub that was hit sustained less damage.

Even the sequence of attacks is different. In the first replay, the sub attack goes:

Harry Lee, Thorton, Harry Lee, Thorton.

In the second, Harry Lee, Thorton, Thorton.

The lack of a second attack on the Harry Lee explains why it survived.

Not enough proof? OK, let's run it a third time and hit the esc key a few times (being the impatient person that I am). Note that IN ALL THREE REPLAYS the first two actions seem unaffected. The results:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Sub attack near Rabaul at 21,28

Japanese Ships
DD Asanagi, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Shokaku
CA Kako
DD Akebono

Allied Ships
SS S-38, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Rennell Island at 38,45

Japanese Ships
SS I-21, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
AP Harry Lee, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Worden

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Rennell Island at 38,45

Japanese Ships
SS I-29

Allied Ships
AV Thornton

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Rennell Island at 38,45

Japanese Ships
SS I-29, Shell hits 2, on fire

Allied Ships
DD Worden

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, now when I go to the game, TWO japanese subs have been damaged, not just one as in the first two replays. The sub that was damaged in the first two replays is now damaged even more than in the first two replays.

Also, the weather for 6/3/42 is now clear, whereas in the first two replays it was partly cloudy.

OK, that is my evidence that something major is going wrong. Any thoughts?

I am not sure that it matters, but the computer I ran it on is a Pentium 2 (not sure of speed, but I know it is in excess of the required 400 Mhz)
64 RAM
Matrox MGA-G100 AGP board

Thanks!

Knavey · Post by **Knavey** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:20 pm

Sounds similar to some of the other bugs that have to do with PBEM replays not matching.

I know I use the esc key a lot to get past the annoying Pilot kills someone messages.

wie201 · Post by **wie201** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:27 pm

Thanks, but I do not think that it is a PBEM matching problem, as I understand it. I went to my turns and verified that the different damage results were actual.

Feinder · Post by **Feinder** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 12:34 am

There is an "issue" with running the CombatReplay multiple times without restarting the game. It -will- yield different results each time you run it, if you have not restarted the game, regardless of whether it's a single-player or PBEM.

The -other- bug that Knavey is mentioning, is that occasionally, if you re-execute the CombatReplay (even with a fresh restart), it will yield different results. The actual results APPLIED are constant however. The situation that Knavey and have encountered (and continue to do so occasionally) is that

Knavey is IJN, I am USN. Knavey executes the turn that I have sent him, and thus creates a CombatReplay. The results are applied normally, and he when his turn comes up, he can see that damage has been applied appropriately.

However, when he sends me his turn, and the CombatReplay, the CombatReplay that runs is a "plausable" but not correct rendition of the turns events. When I open his turn (to make my own moves), the damage to my ships is what was generated from his initial CombatReplay, NOT what was generated from my execution of the CombatReplay. If Knavey goes back and executes the CombatReplay again, the results are also different. But he goes back to load MY original turn (to regenerate the CombatReplay), it comes back just as it did normally.

It's kinda wierd, yes. We have reported it to Matrix, and they actually are working on the fix. The situation usually occurs for about 3 - 4 turns in a row (where the CombatReplay doesn't match), and then clears up (and then comes back 10 or 15 turns later. The best suggestion I can make, is to have the IJN player also mail the Combat.Txt file with the CombatReplay and his turn, to the USN player. While the Combat.Txt file is not entirely accurate, it -was- generated from the CombatReplay that will actually be applied to your ships, so you can look to see what targets were attacked in the Combat.Txt file and verify the condition of you units at each target.

Regards,
-F-

wie201 · Post by **wie201** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:08 am

OK, thanks for the response Feinder.

I will send my opponent two versions of the turn to see if the results end up being the same, despite the very different combat replay results. In other words I will send him replays 1 and 3.

I will look to see if replay number 3 comes back in my turn and the I-29 is not damaged at all (as compared to almost sunk now). If the I-29 comes back damaged (where it wasn't in the first replay), problem.

I have, however, run the replay several times without hitting the esc key, and the results are the same as the first replay each time. The results did not change.

XPav · Post by **XPav** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:10 am

And the PBEM replay problem is utterly inconsistent too. I've seen the replay not match my turn once(playing as USN), and I've loaded multiple replays. It doesn't always screw things up, just sometimes, and not for everyone.

Its my favorite type of bug.

Yamamoto · Post by **Yamamoto** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:20 am

Originally posted by XPav
It doesn't always screw things up, just sometimes, and not for everyone.

Its my favorite type of bug.

Yep, it will be extremely hard to catch a bug like that. We'll probably just have to live with it. Sending the combatReport.txt file is almost the same as seeing the same replay... unless you really miss the animations.

Yamamoto

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:42 am

Hi, The Japanese turn is not a replay. It is the turn being resolved. As such everything (damage wise) should always match what the Japanese player sees) If the Japanese player is able to run the phase over and get differing results then something is really wrong. The allied player might watch a replay and then discover actual damage does not match what he saw during the replay (It should however match what the Japanese player saw)

XPav · Post by **XPav** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:04 am

Originally posted by Yamamoto
Yep, it will be extremely hard to catch a bug like that. We'll probably just have to live with it. Sending the combatReport.txt file is almost the same as seeing the same replay... unless you really miss the animations.

Yamamoto

The turn replay though also contains sighting reports and the like that don't make it into the combat report.

1) They should go into the combat report (easy)
2) The Allies and Japanese should have different replay files (hard)

wie201 · Post by **wie201** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:28 am

My opponent loaded my third replayed turn, where the Harry Lee and Thorton are not sunk, and the I-29 is heavily damaged (at least that is what I see as the IJN). Remember that in the initial play of the turn both USN ships are sunk and the I-29 is not damaged at all.

He confirms that in the third played turn (third time the same file was played), the Harry Lee and Thorton (not even damaged this time, let alone sunk), are both afloat. Also, the weather for 6/3/42 is clear, where under replays 1 and 2 it was partly cloudy.

He sent me the turn back, and I confirmed that the I-29 is heavily damaged.

My opinion - big, big problem. Just enormous.

As the IJN, I not only changed the results but the weather as well. I ran the same sequence of tests on my main computer, and the results are the same.

It only worked (so far) for the first two replays (which, including the initial play, makes three possible results) of a turn. After that, I reloaded the game 5 times and the results at that point just kept repeating the second replay.

Bottom line - at least on my two systems, if you replay a turn without hitting the esc key, it replays the same all the time. If you keep hitting the esc key, you can change the combat results and the weather for the following day.

Ouch.

HawaiiFive-O · Post by **HawaiiFive-O** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:35 am

So what are saying is an unscrupulous IJN PBEM player can keep replaying the combat round, hitting ESC in an attempt to achieve better results for himself?

I hope I am misunderstanding this situation. If this is true, it is a show-stopper of a bug.

Once again, I hope I am misunderstanding the situation.

wie201 · Post by **wie201** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:38 am

HawaiiFive-O,

No, I hate to say it, but you are not misunderstanding. That is exactly what I was able to do as the IJN player.

HawaiiFive-O · Post by **HawaiiFive-O** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:02 am

Ugghhh...

Perhaps we can get an official answer from Matrix/2by3 regarding this bug? I realize it's all hands on deck for WiTP at this point, but this bug has to be killed.

Philwd · Post by **Philwd** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:28 am

I had a similar problem in my PBEM. It also changed the end results. I haven't seen this one posted before so if it was I apologize in advance.

I had turned hexes on to count how far my CV were from US LBA at Noumea then toggled hexes off. I left clicked on a sub near Noumea and the game froze(comp also froze).

I rebootted the computer(not turned off) and reran turn. Started UV back up. I saw the combat results again and this time they were very different. A DD missed the first time now was dead in the water. Shok had 10 less sys damage (I guess I should be happy). I don't know if USN ships were different or not.

I then tried to re-create the freeze at this point. Toggle hexes on/off and left click on sub. It re-created the freeze and this time after re-booting results were back to the original(as far as I can tell).

I didn't try to see how many different results I could get. Once I got back to the original result I stopped and saved the turn.

Moral of the story is don't toggle hexes on/off??

I think I still have the turn file.

Phil

Cap Mandrake · Post by **Cap Mandrake** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:28 am

Wie...that is indeed quite a bug. Did you use True Update to patch up? I remember reading something about either 2.0 or2.10 or 2.11 fixing some bug which permitted replaying turns to improve outcome. Maybe this is a dumb question, but is it possible to skip an update in the sequence, thereby missing the previous fix? True Update I think looks back at the history of the patches, but it might be possible to miss a patch in the sequence by doing it manually. I have had to reconstruct a turn as IJN on more than one occaison (because of email screw-ups or funky stuff from switching from one patch version to another in the middle of a PBEM game) and it always "seems" to come out the same, but I'm not sure i've ever used the escape key in that context you describe.

I agree with Hawaii, this seems to be something that could give the Allied player fits. The ironic thing is this is sort of historical converse of the US cryptographers giving Nimitz a leg up by solving the Japanese Maritime code. In a way, it is even worse, if as you say, the Japanese player can even control the weather!!

Maybe the Emporer really is Divine.

wie201 · Post by **wie201** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:10 am

Hi Cap Mandrake,

I replicated the results on two computers (several times each), one of which was upgraded via True Update, the other was not (the second computer does not have an internet connection). I am sure that I did not skip a patch in the manually patched computer.

Fred98 · Post by **Fred98** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:24 am

Another way to test this:

Set up a PBEM game but play against yourself, each side with a different password.

wie201 · Post by **wie201** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:58 pm

Joe 98,

It's not that easy. It doesn't happen all the time. But I'll put my money where my mouth is, and attach the file for Matrix to take a look. Just e-mail me for the password at dhunt11@cox.net.

Here is how to do it:

1. Load the game as normal, and just let it run.

2. Click "done" when you see partly cloudy. Immediately quit, and re-load.

3. Click on partly cloudy, do not just hit the esc key to get past this screen. Hit the esc key as the combat replays itself to your heart's contents. Hit it at least 30-40 times, intermittently, and view the results in the combat results file.

4. Repeat step 3. After three replays, you will see that the results are very different than the initial play (two subs now heavily damaged), and the weather for 6/3/42 is clear.

If you want to verify the Allied side, he will, of course, have to send you his password on his own. But we already went through this exercise, and the results show both on his computer and on mine when he returns the turn.

OK, back to my Battlefields playtesting. And yes Ross, I know I've spent too much time on this issue

Now back to work!!!!

wie201 · Post by **wie201** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:00 pm

attached (I hope).

Fred98 · Post by **Fred98** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:20 pm

wie201

Telll us more about Battlefields!

Does it have a replay ?

Don't Hit That Esc Key!!! - Big Problem

Don't Hit That Esc Key!!! - Big Problem

Replays

Problem confirmed

Here is the file

OK, now here is the file