Invasion logic?

[juntoalmar]

Hi,

I have a question regarding invasion, as I found some funny consequences of the rules. As the RAC states: “The shore bombardment modifier applies to each unit that invades.”

I tried once an invasion with a Japanese marine from sea box 2, with combat value of 6, on an empty hex with rainy weather that gave me attack odds of 6:2 (3:1). But, if tried to attack the same hex with a 6 marine + a 4 marine in the same sea box, gave me 10:4 (2:1), which is kind of funny.

What is the logic that invading one hex with 10 combat factors gives you worse combat odds than invading with 6? Moreover, invading a same empty hex with one marine unit or two of the same combat value won’t make any difference (let’s say 4:1 versus 8:2).

Still, as a combat simulation doesn’t seem right to me.

What do you think?

[Joseignacio]

Too many data missing:

Invading in rainy weather from 2 box should give a value of 3 to the notional unit, 1 + 1 for rain (penalty of *)+ 1 for 2 box (penalty of "1"). So you should get a 6:3 =2

Of course the unit could be unsupplied and then you would have the ratio you mention: 6:2 because you'd lose the first "1".

But also you may have different values if you attack Home Country, the first value would be 2 instead of 1, or if the invaded land is jungle, although marines and in the case of the Japanese white print unit would give a bonus to counter this.

So, there are too few info, and of course this case is only one among many, so any conclusion is not generally applied. I.e. it's not extrapolable.

Now, going to the case, if I understand well what you are saying, there is a problem with those odds, for the it's not the marine units value that changes but the notional defense unit that increases, and in any case, ...

... not depending on whether you atack Home country or not, supplied or not, jungle or not, ...

... you always should get better ratio with 10 points than with 6. It's only the land defense unit's value what is changing, so more units mean better ratio.

If you had previously a 6:2, for example invading an unsupplied hex in rain from 2 box, you would get a 10:2 with your marines.

[juntoalmar]

I see I have overseen many factors in my explanation (and understanding).

Still my comment stands. The fact that a defender combat value increases when attacked by a "Marine+something" instead of "Marine alone" (whatever the circumstances of rain, jungle, home country...) seems strange to me. I mean, unless the extra unit's soldiers are firing at their own marines to make the invasion harder...

[Joseignacio]

OOps, I was wrong in my last words, I am used to invading from the 4 hex or max 3 with good weather, what you say can happen, although it's exceptional.

[AlbertN]

My take is that by invading with more forces with the "penalty" by the sea zone box, you expose more troops / units to the complications that can rise during an invasion. (Incidents due to strong currents; exposure on larger frontage to token garrisons in setup fortifications such as bunkers and machine guns nests; poorer cooperations or delayed arrival of troops at the expected time; etcetera).

The notional is -in my eyes- an abstraction of factors, not always "troops" present (but can be also that, the fact of a Corp sized unit giving a ZoC benefit implies the corp / army has smaller detatchments scattered over the closeby coastline).

In game terms it translates that it can be more difficult to perform safe invasions the further away you move from your base of operation. Marking a cutting difference between the 4 moving AMPH / TRS and the 5 moving ones for example.

[Joseignacio]

Yes, it's complex to evaluate all the possibilities.

It is true that it can result in a worse result with two units, but it should be VERY infrequent such attack, usually invading from box 4 or at least box 3 in sunny weather.

In truth, it could even have been worse: If the units had not been OOS juntoalmar would have gone from 6:3 i.e 2:1 to 10:6, a 1,5:1, if the area was a Home country, from 6:4 ---> 1,5 to 10:8 ---> 1:1

I can't see the table just now but I guess the worsening must be notorious. Sorry for not knowing them by heart but I always use 2D10 and fractions.

[juntoalmar]

Thanks for your comments. I agree with you both. A bad planned invasion must be more complicated for two units instead of one. If notional units represent not only the troops waiting the invaders, but somehow the difficulty of the invasion itself expressed in odds in a combat table, then it makes sense.

Still, bad planned or not, attacking an empty hex with a resource gives pretty good return.

[Joseignacio]

Yes, but remember the hex is not empty in truth, hence the fight.

In Spain (I think you said you were spanish, like me) I would compare them to the old BRIDOTs, that I belonged to (Brigadas de Defensa Operativa del Territorio/Land Operative Defence Brigades), units not strong enough to Stop a Normandy but enough to reject small beachheads or at least embarrass the enemy while reinforcements arrived.

http://www.militar.org.ua/blog/las-fuer ... torio-dot/