Montanas

[Revthought]

So is there a mod that includes the Montanas? Just because. [:D]

[el cid again]

Is there a mod that lets the war go on long enough to get them?
RHS ends at the end of Monsoon 1946 - and that is NOT long enough.
How much of IJN would be left to fight later than that?
In other words, why have them? They are a post war ship for
those who believe in battleships. After a Midway like battle,
they would be de-funded, as IRL.

ORIGINAL: Revthought

So is there a mod that includes the Montanas? Just because. [:D]

[Revthought]

First of all, I like battleships. [:-]

Second of all, there are plenty of mods out there with ships that were never built. The original laying down of the Montana class was delayed by the American entry into war in early 1941; however, when construction was green lighted again in 1942 the first Montana had a delivery date of November 1st 1945. The game does, indeed, go that long.

However, a more appropriate point you've made is "what would be left to fight them?" Good question. Clearly in a rather standard game, nothing much; but, there are plenty of mods out there like Focus Pacific and RA/Treaty Mod/Between the Storms that make a lot of assumptions about "what could have been."

If the Montana class was designed and laid down when it was authorized by congress in 1939 it certainly could have made an appearance. Hard coded start dates aside, if there were a mod that "assumed" a later start date--say mid-1943 the Montana's certainly could be part of that mod and have lots of things to fight.

I'm not saying that the ship class would be appropriate for every mod, but it is certainly a ship that could reasonably be in one.

That's all.

[BillBrown]

Focus Pacific has Montanas in it.

[Revthought]

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Focus Pacific has Montanas in it.

Montanas

 
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Logged in as: Revthought

Awesome! Thanks for the info?

[Korvar]

What can I say? I'm an enabler... [:D]

[el cid again]

For the record, I like battleships too. Which is why I collect material on them. By luck, I was present
when the USS New Jersey fired her first practice shots, off San Clemente Island, on the occasion of her
return to service for Viet Nam. I was also present when she fired her first shots in anger, off the DMZ.
I report, to the amazement of all present, we could SEE her shells leap into the sky! [We were up range,
seaward, about two miles away, behind her, looking downrange in the same direction the shells were aimed].

Indeed the first pair of Montana's was authorized in 1939. And they were supposed to be the two vessels
following the four Iowa's. But during the war, those ships were replaced by Illinois and Kentucky. Even
though they were not as large, and did not take as long to build as a Montana would, neither was ever
completed (although some of the material was later used in other ships). The decision was made because
the Montana's could not keep up with a fast carrier force, but Iowa's could. It is difficult to imagine
any form the war might take that would have given the kind of priority required to complete them. In fact,
although no less than 5 Montana's got authorized during the war, thinking always was these would be completed
in the late 1940s, and would permit the US (along with 12 other modern battleships) to dominate whatever
might be required to dominate. Over time, it dawned even on battleship admirals that this wasn't the way
to dominate for the future. So they were all cancelled without even being laid down.

In the days of WITP RHS had two primary forms - CVO (Carrier Oriented) and BBO (Battleship Oriented) - because
I assumed there would be players who wanted to play with battleships. [Eventually we created Japan Enhanced
Scenarios, which were very popular - culminating in EOS (Empire of the Sun).] I believed a war fought with
battleships was MORE historical than one with carriers dominating - because (a) you fight in war with what you
build in peacetime; (b) the existing planning favored capital ships; (c) the war probably would not last long
enough for new designs to reach operational status. Indeed, the new warship designs made during the war generally
failed to reach service before it ended, and sometimes were not worth having. Consider the new Worcester class
cruisers, on which fortunes were spent: they were not very impressive in service in any sense, and were not long
retained. The Alaskas were not good ships (in terms a sailor understands), were expensive and needed large crews,
so they too were not to see long service (or to return over and over as the Iowa's did). But I was wrong -
apparently BBO had little following - and we don't do one in AE era RHS. The scenario assumed the PLANNED
construction for BOTH sides was actually what was built. It is remarkable that the 'carrier revolution' occurred
in navies so rapidly, particularly considering how conservative senior officers were.

The Montana concept is also something akin to the H Class of Germany, and the Yamato class of Japan - and indeed
late 1918 era designs. [The US proposed a ship of something like 80,000 tons with 8 x 18 inch guns!] But 18 inch
guns were never practical. Both RN and IJN got them into service, and they were too powerful - destructive of their
own ships (popping rivets for example). Yamato could not fire broadsides - it was too destructive to the ship!
Montana, with 12x16's - was more practical that that, at least: it could probably achieve twice the effective
rate of fire - firing more often and full salvos every time. But it was still a waste of steel, and steel was the
most critical strategic resource of either the USN or IJN (except for oil, which you don't build things out of).
All that steel is only in one place. It has no more reach than other battleships have, basically. And there is
nothing that a Montana might have engaged that a South Dakota or an Iowa would not have been fit to engage at equal
range - or a carrier would not have dispatched before ever it hove into view. All the extra weight of steel gave
you (apart from an un-needed 33% more firepower) was a slower ship, unable to keep up with fast carriers, at the
cost of the steel needed for 500 tanks, or 50 escorts (rating a standard battleship as worth 1500 tanks and 150
escorts). I like battleships because they look nice, and in peacetime project naval power perhaps better than
any other ship of any era did or does.

If you can come up with a rationale for big battleships (Yamato's included, and any indication anyone will play
a scenario with them - I will create a scenario including them. But I find what is popular are scenarios in
which Yamato's (and Montana's) are not built, in favor of more carriers, which build faster and are worth more
in combat to boot. IMHO RN was wrong to cancel the Lions - before the Pacific War began - on the basis the war
could not last long enough to see them: the war DID last long enough. Still - only one of the hulls ever saw
service - in a different form - as HMS Vanguard, the very last battleship built. Even it was considered for
rebuilding into carrier form at one point.

ORIGINAL: Revthought

First of all, I like battleships. [:-]

Second of all, there are plenty of mods out there with ships that were never built. The original laying down of the Montana class was delayed by the American entry into war in early 1941; however, when construction was green lighted again in 1942 the first Montana had a delivery date of November 1st 1945. The game does, indeed, go that long.

However, a more appropriate point you've made is "what would be left to fight them?" Good question. Clearly in a rather standard game, nothing much; but, there are plenty of mods out there like Focus Pacific and RA/Treaty Mod/Between the Storms that make a lot of assumptions about "what could have been."

If the Montana class was designed and laid down when it was authorized by congress in 1939 it certainly could have made an appearance. Hard coded start dates aside, if there were a mod that "assumed" a later start date--say mid-1943 the Montana's certainly could be part of that mod and have lots of things to fight.

I'm not saying that the ship class would be appropriate for every mod, but it is certainly a ship that could reasonably be in one.

That's all.

[DOCUP]

JuanG's battleship more has it in atleast one of them. Nice mods also.