Ostwindflak's SC 3 stuff

[Ostwindflak]

I've put about 3 hours in total so far. Playing on Intermediate as Axis.

A few things I have noticed:

1. Allied ASW seems pretty strong for 1939. It is very hard to get any subs through the North Sea without being clubbed by DD's, CL's, and CV's. I remember there being a good balance in AoD. The search ability for UK seems a bit much for 1939. I am not saying it should be a walk in the park for U-Boats, but no matter where you move a U-Boat in the North Sea, it gets pounced on. Running silent isn't helping either. I will test this more.

2. I have noticed that if you move the mouse around while selected on a unit (checking it's movement paths) in say 4-6 directions (it varies) the movement path and final destination icon for the unit will disappear. I've run into this numerous times. I will grab a screen shot of it if it is not already known. I have found that right clicking to deselect the unit and then re-selecting the unit fixes this. This has happened using both 3D sprites and NATO counters.

3. Germany starts with 1 point already into Advanced Aircraft. When upgrading a fighter unit using 3D models, it appears the model changes to an FW-190. Kills the time line immersion seeing an FW-190 on the map in 1939. If I remember right, the FW-190 model didn't appear until you had Advanced Aircraft up to level 3 (maybe 4?)in AoD.

4. So far the AI doesn't appear to be a complete walk over which is nice, however it did appear that even with good odds the Germans take some hefty losses sometimes against Polish units at the outset. Several attacks showed a 1-3 odds in German favor, but I end up taking 2 step losses to the Polish unit's 1 or 2. This wasn't attacking a fort either. Maybe it was just bad luck idk. Seemed that the Poles weren't as surprised as OKH thought they would be.

Liking it for sure. I do like the direction the UI is going, looks more modern than it's predecessor. The tech tree tweak is nice too. I was a bit sad to see Divisions go (although I read they can be added with the editor).

*EDIT* I always play with FoW on.

[Ason]

I agree about naval combat, the allies are a bit overpowered, if not in research they are in numbers. if I move a single ship or the entire navy and run into an enemy ship (which I always do) I know they will basically all get slaughtered the next turn.. I think, yes allies should have the upper hand, but they shouldn't be able to kill my entire navy in 1 turn.

It also seems even if you move away more than 5-10 hexes from an enemy ship they know exactly where you are and just go directly to your units the next turn. Shouldn't there be some fog of war?

I also found silent mode doesn't seem to help much :/

[sPzAbt653]

1. Allied ASW seems pretty strong for 1939. It is very hard to get any subs through the North Sea without being clubbed by DD's, CL's, and CV's. I remember there being a good balance in AoD. The search ability for UK seems a bit much for 1939. I am not saying it should be a walk in the park for U-Boats, but no matter where you move a U-Boat in the North Sea, it gets pounced on. Running silent isn't helping either. I will test this more.

I noticed the same, but I am a rookie so I guessed I was doing something wrong. I lost the Deutschland when I tried to move it back to Germany thru the North Sea, and I lost a couple sub units [running Silent] trying to move them to the Atlantic. I play with Fog of War off, so I thought maybe that was making the computer opponent see everything I was doing.

Edit: I am playing on Beginner Level with no Bonus to the Computer.

[n0kn0k]

Try turning fow on. It helps. But i agree. Early on it's hard to move around the North Sea.

[sPzAbt653]

Thanks, but for me Fog of War isn't an option for this type of game. Regarding Land Combat, it isn't really possible for a corps to be totally hidden from the opposition. Its values for strength, composition, moral, supply, etc. may not be known, but its location is known. When I turn Fog of War on, almost all units on the map disappear and I have no idea what is going on. Its just not a reasonable situation to me.

Naval Units are very different. In real life they didn't stop in a hex and sit and wait for the enemy to attack them. I think there should be a Chance to Intercept based on Hexes Moved and Spotting ability, or something [if there already isn't]. If the Bismarck sails thru the English Channel, everyone would know it, but the English Fleet would still have to catch it. If a U-Boat moves thru the North Sea, no one knows it.

I'm no fan of naval warfare, and I'm a beginner at this game so I really shouldn't be making such comments, but when I saw a few others comment about the situation, I thought I would chime in for the possible benefit of the developers.

[Ason]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Thanks, but for me Fog of War isn't an option for this type of game. Regarding Land Combat, it isn't really possible for a corps to be totally hidden from the opposition. Its values for strength, composition, moral, supply, etc. may not be known, but its location is known. When I turn Fog of War on, almost all units on the map disappear and I have no idea what is going on. Its just not a reasonable situation to me.

You mean like it was in real life? Whats's the fun in knowing everything the enemy does?
(I do however wish 'spy and intelligence' would only show enemies close to the frontlines. Alot of times it shows completely unimportant units in the US for example)

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Naval Units are very different. In real life they didn't stop in a hex and sit and wait for the enemy to attack them. I think there should be a Chance to Intercept based on Hexes Moved and Spotting ability, or something [if there already isn't]. If the Bismarck sails thru the English Channel, everyone would know it, but the English Fleet would still have to catch it. If a U-Boat moves thru the North Sea, no one knows it.

I do very much agree with this point though.

[BillRunacre]

Hi

A couple of thoughts about spotting.

When using Fog of War, air units can be used to make recon missions:

- Air reconnaissance missions can be used to locate hidden enemy forces, and launching these missions before your ground forces advance will prevent the latter from from suffering heavy casualties should they inadvertently contact previously unseen enemy units.

- Air reconnaissance missions can also be used to see if raider units shown with a '?' are still at the indicated location. These missions when targeted at such hexes will make the '?' disappear, and if an enemy naval unit is present then it will now be spotted.

Also, air units upgraded with Long Range Aircraft will have increased spotting ranges, and this is especially the case for Airships (USA only) and Maritime Bombers.

[Hubert Cater]

Subs running in Silent mode will pass through enemy naval units and have a 50% chance of passing through a Destroyer. However if you have the bad luck of finishing the move next to a hidden naval unit, or under a hidden naval unit then you will of course be spotted.

Currently the UK AI runs a bit of a criss-cross pattern across the North Sea with its Destroyers looking for subs attempting the breakthrough up and around the UK so sometimes you'll be spotted but other times not.

Hopefully some of this info helps,
Hubert

[Ostwindflak]

So far it seems to be an 80% - 20% spotting ratio. 80% of the time they find my subs. Sometimes I run across a hidden UK naval unit which I understand why they can find my sub. Most other times it seems to be I am in the clear and then "wham!" I have the whole RN coming down on the U-Boats.

Not just one U-Boat either, like two and three not even near each other are getting attacked all at once. The only method I have found that is working so far is to wait until you capture Norway and then leapfrog your U-Boats from port to port. Sometimes a CV will hit the port where the U-Boat is, but no other DDs or CLs show up.

[Hubert Cater]

On the Allied AI turn, do you receive a surprise encounter message for when the RN bumps into your sub (assuming AI messages are turned on), or does the RN naval unit simply show up and attack your sub?

Is it a Destroyer that finds your sub first? Then the RN moves in or is it something else?

To clarify, the RN shouldn't really be spotting your subs at all if they are hidden... it is likely just the case of the criss-cross pattern that the Destroyers are running that reveal your sub location once they bump into you... I just want to make sure that this is the case and that there is not a bug in there somewhere.

Also are you running your subs away from the UK coast or possibly near enough for them to spot with their aircraft?

[Ostwindflak]

I turn AI messages off. I'll turn it on for this. Usually it is a DD that attacks first. I can tell if it is a surprise encounter usually by the way the battle unfolds by watching it and it appears most of the time it isn't just them running into the U-Boats by chance. These seem like deliberate attacks.

I stay away from the coast of England. The only planes that should be able to reach my subs are CV planes and I haven't seen the CVs active much the last few turns.

Another instance was a U-boat I had in the Cabot Strait near the Sydney Mines in Canada. I moved into the one of the red hexes outside the Sydney Mines, a DD was in port there. A battle ensued because I was surprised by the DD, nothing off there. DD attacks on Allied turn, inflicts a 2 step loss. My turn comes around, U-boat is put back on silent running and moved North to hex 46,77 SW of Belle Isle. Allied turn the DD comes right to the U-boat with a deliberate attack, my U-boat didn't surprise the DD. Maybe there is a long range plane on Newfoundland, but if not I am not sure how the DD knew to go right there out of all the possible hexes.

[Ostwindflak]

I noticed that Poland did not start with an HQ unit as it did in AoD. Was it forgotten or is the intention to not give them one?

[BillRunacre]

It was intentional not to give them one given their state of unpreparedness.

[Ostwindflak]

Okay, thank you for the reply.

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I turn AI messages off. I'll turn it on for this. Usually it is a DD that attacks first. I can tell if it is a surprise encounter usually by the way the battle unfolds by watching it and it appears most of the time it isn't just them running into the U-Boats by chance. These seem like deliberate attacks.

I stay away from the coast of England. The only planes that should be able to reach my subs are CV planes and I haven't seen the CVs active much the last few turns.

Another instance was a U-boat I had in the Cabot Strait near the Sydney Mines in Canada. I moved into the one of the red hexes outside the Sydney Mines, a DD was in port there. A battle ensued because I was surprised by the DD, nothing off there. DD attacks on Allied turn, inflicts a 2 step loss. My turn comes around, U-boat is put back on silent running and moved North to hex 46,77 SW of Belle Isle. Allied turn the DD comes right to the U-boat with a deliberate attack, my U-boat didn't surprise the DD. Maybe there is a long range plane on Newfoundland, but if not I am not sure how the DD knew to go right there out of all the possible hexes.

I've run a few tests on my end just to make sure the AI wasn't cheating, repeatable by anyone, and it looks like everything is working as it should be.

I suspect this might just be some first game bad luck with the Subs trying to sneak out of the North Sea early in the game and I suggest trying a few more games before we think of any changes.

Reason being is that early in the game the Germans do have a chance to sneak those subs out before the UK Destroyers get into position as they start on the opposite side of the UK... and when I tested FoW by parking some German subs near Scapa Flow and in the North Sea but off of the Destroyer criss cross pattern (where they are looking for subs) the subs were never detected nor attacked. I switched between Hunt and Silent mode and tested over 4-5 turns.

That being said there is an outside chance of a unit being spotted through an Intelligence hit and then if that happens your sub will be attacked as though it was always visible and this might explain some cases, but otherwise it could as just mentioned be the case where your subs just happened to be in the paths of the Destroyers as they were moving around the map.

Having the AI messages turned on will let you know for sure if the AI was surprised or not in those cases.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

[Ostwindflak]

Thanks Hubert. I would not request any changes be made at this point either. I agree that more games need to be played to make sure it is a non-issue. Do the British start with level 1 Intelligence already researched?

[BillRunacre]

No, but they do start with a chit invested in it so they should have level 1 sometime in 1940.

[Ostwindflak]

I see, thank you.

[Ostwindflak]

I read in the manual as with other SC games that destroyed units will have an * next to their name in the production screen and are able to rebuilt at a cheaper cost. I did this all the time in AoD. However the U-boat I lost in 1939, U-32, does not have that option. It costs the same amount as all the other U-boats and no *.

[crispy131313]

Naval units were always exempt from this rule in the previous games as well.