CV vs SUB detection

[ncc1701e]

I have started to play in hotseat mode to be sure of what is going on.

I have put an uboat in silent mode in North Sea.
I have taken a CV to put it three hexagons from its position.

It was detected immediately.
I have sent an air strike. The uboat avoids it and disappears. Perfect.

I move the CV just two hexagons from its position.
The uboat was again immediately detected.

Is there a probability chance not to have it detected? I recall the uboat was in silent mode.

Thanks

[crispy131313]

Advanced Subs Tech – increases the Naval Attack and Carrier Attack values for Subs, while also increasing their chance of diving if attacked by 10%.

What I am not sure of is what the starting value of diving chance factor is. The above is from the Manual included with the game by the way.

[ncc1701e]

I should have precised. This is the first Axis/Allied turn thus 8 september 1939.

[sPzAbt653]

What I am not sure of is what the starting value of diving chance factor is.

From the manual - Subs have a % chance of diving.

So the manual doesn't know, either.

I play with Fog of War = OFF, and if the U-Boats make it to the Atlantic, they can't make it back to port to get repaired. I've run two trials and the subs are apparently very easy to find, and enemy destroyers get the first attack [CV's get two attacks] so there is no way for the subs to counter attack as they have suffered losses and need to get away or else get destroyed the next turn.

I don't know what the mechanics of subs are, but they should be different from other units. Maybe they can ignore Fog of War = OFF Rules or something.

My other thought is that the 39-42 Atlantic Campaign feels like the 43-44 Atlantic Campaign, where the U-Boats are used in desperate suicide attacks. I haven't made it to 43-44 yet, but if it is the same as 39-42 then there is an issue. Something might be done to give U-Boats the advantage for the early part of the scenario.

As it is now, I cost the Allies 9 MPP's of convoys while losing 800 MPP's of U-Boats in 39-40. Maybe I don't know what I am doing yet.

[zakblood]

Maybe I don't know what I am doing yet

your not alone [&o]

[Ostwindflak]

I have lost 3 U-boats and 1 Cruiser attacking shipping lanes between '39-'42. The extra ports you get access to on the French coast and then by Spain help a bit, but yeah allied DD's run amok early on.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

From the manual - Subs have a % chance of diving.

So the manual doesn't know, either.

They have a 20% starting chance, increasing by 10% with every level of Advanced Subs they are upgraded with.

However, each new level of Anti-Submarine Warfare upgrade reduces an attacked Sub's dive percentage by 10%.

The Carriers do have an automatic spotting range at sea of 4 hexes, but this should only allow them to automatically see Subs that aren't in Silent mode.

So if a Sub is (say) 3 hexes from the Carrier and in Silent Mode, then all other things being equal, the Carrier should not be able to see the Sub.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653I play with Fog of War = OFF, and if the U-Boats make it to the Atlantic, they can't make it back to port to get repaired.

Fog of War is key, and that is a difficult one as the naval game would have to be redesigned if it is off.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

So the manual doesn't know, either.

The Manual does now. [;)]

I must say that it's great to see you're looking in it and providing this feedback, all of you.

Coming on this forum is keeping me very busy at the moment, it's definitely a struggle to keep up, but at the same time it is extremely worthwhile. Thank you. [:)]

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre
So if a Sub is (say) 3 hexes from the Carrier and in Silent Mode, then all other things being equal, the Carrier should not be able to see the Sub.

So I think there is a bug here. I will reproduce tonight once my girls have eaten.

[TheBattlefield]

[/quote]

My other thought is that the 39-42 Atlantic Campaign feels like the 43-44 Atlantic Campaign, where the U-Boats are used in desperate suicide attacks. I haven't made it to 43-44 yet, but if it is the same as 39-42 then there is an issue. Something might be done to give U-Boats the advantage for the early part of the scenario.

As it is now, I cost the Allies 9 MPP's of convoys while losing 800 MPP's of U-Boats in 39-40. Maybe I don't know what I am doing yet.

The games seem to run differently. Until September '41 I have lost only 2 submarines and they are permanently in the Atlantic use. Even though Allied submarine hunting is quite persistent (CV's seem to track everything!) I already had very extensively used the French ports for repairs. In a surprise encounter I could even sink a battered Canadian Destroyer.

Are submerged submarines actually uncovered by Spy/Intell? If so, this would explain some attack on the invisible.

[Ostwindflak]

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

Are submerged submarines actually uncovered by Spy/Intell? If so, this would explain some attack on the invisible.

I believe Intel does find subs running on silent.

[TheBattlefield]

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

Are submerged submarines actually uncovered by Spy/Intell? If so, this would explain some attack on the invisible.

I believe Intel does find subs running on silent.

That should be reserved to more recent research stages, right? Almost as "Enigma" decryption event. [8D]

[sPzAbt653]

They have a 20% starting chance [to dive], increasing by 10% with every level of Advanced Subs they are upgraded with.

However, each new level of Anti-Submarine Warfare upgrade reduces an attacked Sub's dive percentage by 10%.

This seems a bit backwards. Subs have an 80% chance to stay on the surface and get attacked ? Honestly, what sub wouldn't dive when attacked ? Only one that was damaged to the point where it couldn't dive, I think.

It would seem that it should rather be that an attacked sub will dive, with the attacker having a 20% chance of getting off a shot before the sub disappears below the sea.

Fog of War is key, and that is a difficult one as the naval game would have to be redesigned if it is off.

Understood. I will make this statement, respectfully and with no malice - I will not play with Fog of War on [as it makes the game too foggy for me], therefore the game has an issue with naval warfare, specifically the U-Boat War.

[sPzAbt653]

The games seem to run differently. Until September '41 I have lost only 2 submarines and they are permanently in the Atlantic use. Even though Allied submarine hunting is quite persistent (CV's seem to track everything!) I already had very extensively used the French ports for repairs. In a surprise encounter I could even sink a battered Canadian Destroyer.

Now that I know that Fog of War makes a difference, I have modified my use of U-Boats and other Naval Units. They must stay in port and only strike at targets that allow them to return to port immediately, thus allowing them to avoid being attacked [the computer opponent does this also, so fair is fair]. As you suggest, the use of French ports does help, but the Allied Convoy Routes are mostly outside the range of such tactics.

[sPzAbt653]

Coming on this forum is keeping me very busy at the moment, it's definitely a struggle to keep up, but at the same time it is extremely worthwhile. Thank you.

In addition to the game being very nice, it is also nice that you and Hubert are providing intelligent responses/explanations to these posts [as opposed to the lame excuse making that plague some other games]. Thank you !

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

They have a 20% starting chance [to dive], increasing by 10% with every level of Advanced Subs they are upgraded with.

However, each new level of Anti-Submarine Warfare upgrade reduces an attacked Sub's dive percentage by 10%.

This seems a bit backwards. Subs have an 80% chance to stay on the surface and get attacked ? Honestly, what sub wouldn't dive when attacked ? Only one that was damaged to the point where it couldn't dive, I think.

It would seem that it should rather be that an attacked sub will dive, with the attacker having a 20% chance of getting off a shot before the sub disappears below the sea.

We have at times had higher % chances, but it can be rather frustrating for the sub hunters, so we had to step them back to where they are now.

I think the big difference is the Fog of War because you're right, if they are automatically spotted then an 80% chance to stay put when attacked wouldn't feel at all right.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Understood. I will make this statement, respectfully and with no malice - I will not play with Fog of War on [as it makes the game too foggy for me], therefore the game has an issue with naval warfare, specifically the U-Boat War.

I understand, and there might be edits that could be made to make it work better for you, but the trouble is that they won't work so well for those playing with Fog of War on.

For instance, subs could have a higher base % chance to dive, or a chance to retreat when attacked at low strength, as when they retreat they would suffer some casualties, but less than if they didn't retreat.

This might have to be something that is modded, at least for now. It wouldn't take long to do but only a bit of practice could determine what might be workable % chances with Fog of War off.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre
So if a Sub is (say) 3 hexes from the Carrier and in Silent Mode, then all other things being equal, the Carrier should not be able to see the Sub.

Confirmed. The two subs are in Silent Mode before moving. I move the CV there and both were seen immediately.

[crispy131313]

That is only 2 hexes away in your picture?

[ncc1701e]

Two hexes for the first sub and three hexes for the second sub. If I am considering the following, both subs should be invisible, right?

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

The Carriers do have an automatic spotting range at sea of 4 hexes, but this should only allow them to automatically see Subs that aren't in Silent mode.

So if a Sub is (say) 3 hexes from the Carrier and in Silent Mode, then all other things being equal, the Carrier should not be able to see the Sub.

[crispy131313]

Your right the other Sub is 3 hexes, whoops nothing to see here