Air Group Transport

[Zoetermeer]

I don't really understand how this works. Am I supposed to use the "Transport" or "Cargo" TF missions? The manual's descriptions of these two missions are overlapping:

- Transport. These TFs are tasked with moving vital supplies and
ground troops to the ever-thirsty front lines.
- Cargo. These TFs are meant to carry supplies and resources.

So which one is supposed to be used for "supplies"?

In any event, I tried to use both of these flavors of mission type to move an air group with AV ships, but neither seemed to work (the "load troops" screen says "unable to allocate any load to any ships!"). The manual says this about the "air group" load type:

- Air Groups: This represents the aircraft themselves and their crews. Each air group has a load cost based on the type of the aircraft (Fighter, Bomber, etc) and the number currently in the group. Air groups are loaded into cargo space for normal transport, and arrive at their destination fully disrupted; representing the time required to assemble the aircraft and make them operational.

The "loaded into cargo space for normal transport" seems to indicate these units can be transported by any ship with sufficient cargo capacity. However I am not able to transport a fighter air group, for example, using an AV ship. However the "ship type carrying ability" matrix in the manual has a "Yes" for (AV, Airgroup). Why am I not able to do this? It seems that an xAK is able to perform this sort of transport, and this is confirmed in the same matrix given in the manual. But I do not see what distinguishes these two types of ships when we're talking specifically about the ability to transport airgroups. They both have cargo capacity available.

[dave sindel]

ORIGINAL: Zoetermeer

I don't really understand how this works. Am I supposed to use the "Transport" or "Cargo" TF missions? The manual's descriptions of these two missions are overlapping:

- Transport. These TFs are tasked with moving vital supplies and
ground troops to the ever-thirsty front lines.
- Cargo. These TFs are meant to carry supplies and resources.

So which one is supposed to be used for "supplies"?

In any event, I tried to use both of these flavors of mission type to move an air group with AV ships, but neither seemed to work (the "load troops" screen says "unable to allocate any load to any ships!"). The manual says this about the "air group" load type:

- Air Groups: This represents the aircraft themselves and their crews. Each air group has a load cost based on the type of the aircraft (Fighter, Bomber, etc) and the number currently in the group. Air groups are loaded into cargo space for normal transport, and arrive at their destination fully disrupted; representing the time required to assemble the aircraft and make them operational.

The "loaded into cargo space for normal transport" seems to indicate these units can be transported by any ship with sufficient cargo capacity. However I am not able to transport a fighter air group, for example, using an AV ship. However the "ship type carrying ability" matrix in the manual has a "Yes" for (AV, Airgroup). Why am I not able to do this? It seems that an xAK is able to perform this sort of transport, and this is confirmed in the same matrix given in the manual. But I do not see what distinguishes these two types of ships when we're talking specifically about the ability to transport airgroups. They both have cargo capacity available.

Your question and your post title seem at odds. Are you trying to move supplies or move an air group? Or have an air group move supplies?

[Oberst_Klink]

The difference between Transport and Cargo is, that xAP or AP won't be listed if you have chosen to create a Cargo TF. You still can use Transport TFs for supplies, fuel, too. It just makes it easier, skipping the ships that have also a troop transport capability.

Klink, Oberst

[Zoetermeer]

ORIGINAL: dave sindel
Your question and your post title seem at odds. Are you trying to move supplies or move an air group? Or have an air group move supplies?

I mean "transport of air groups" but I thought perhaps the content of the message would make that clear, e.g. "I tried to use both of these flavors of mission type to move an air group with AV ships, but neither seemed to work...".

[dave sindel]

ORIGINAL: Zoetermeer

ORIGINAL: dave sindel
Your question and your post title seem at odds. Are you trying to move supplies or move an air group? Or have an air group move supplies?

I mean "transport of air groups" but I thought perhaps the content of the message would make that clear, e.g. "I tried to use both of these flavors of mission type to move an air group with AV ships, but neither seemed to work...".

To move air groups - I create an "air transport" task force and then use the "load troops" button. It will present you with a list of air groups to select from. One air group per ship.

[Zoetermeer]

ORIGINAL: dave sindel
To move air groups - I create an "air transport" task force and then use the "load troops" button. It will present you with a list of air groups to select from. One air group per ship.

I tried that as well, but no dice. Does that work for you with AV's? According to the manual that mission type is specialized for CVE's to carry air groups as cargo instead of as operational units:

Air Transport. A variation of the Cargo TF, in which CVEs are used for carrying aircraft cargo instead of operational air groups. The AI will only form this type of TF when it has CVEs without airgroups. Maximum of 25 ships per TF.

[dave sindel]

ORIGINAL: Zoetermeer

ORIGINAL: dave sindel
To move air groups - I create an "air transport" task force and then use the "load troops" button. It will present you with a list of air groups to select from. One air group per ship.

I tried that as well, but no dice. Does that work for you with AV's? According to the manual that mission type is specialized for CVE's to carry air groups as cargo instead of as operational units:

Air Transport. A variation of the Cargo TF, in which CVEs are used for carrying aircraft cargo instead of operational air groups. The AI will only form this type of TF when it has CVEs without airgroups. Maximum of 25 ships per TF.

Are the air groups restricted ? If they are, then they will show on the list "greyed out". Available groups will show in yellow.

[dave sindel]

I have never tried to move air groups with an AV - I dont think that's possible

[Zoetermeer]

ORIGINAL: dave sindel
Are the air groups restricted ? If they are, then they will show on the list "greyed out". Available groups will show in yellow.

I don't think so, because I am able to select them on the "load troops" screen. I was able to load two of these air groups successfully onto a separate task force containing an AG and an xAK. When I try to do this with a TF of two AV's, I can select the air groups I want -- their statuses switch to "LOADING" -- but when I click "verify load" I get "unable to allocate any load to any ships".

I guess my real question is why I can't do this with AV's when the manual seems to suggest that I can. Is there some fundamental property of AV's, or perhaps certain classes of AV's, that prevents them from transporting air groups even when they have sufficient cargo capacity?

[Zoetermeer]

If so, maybe the manual is wrong here?

[dave sindel]

ORIGINAL: Zoetermeer

If so, maybe the manual is wrong here?

I'm not sure on this point. I have never tried using an AV to transport an air group, so I have no experience in that regard to help.

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: Zoetermeer

ORIGINAL: dave sindel
Are the air groups restricted ? If they are, then they will show on the list "greyed out". Available groups will show in yellow.

I don't think so, because I am able to select them on the "load troops" screen. I was able to load two of these air groups successfully onto a separate task force containing an AG and an xAK. When I try to do this with a TF of two AV's, I can select the air groups I want -- their statuses switch to "LOADING" -- but when I click "verify load" I get "unable to allocate any load to any ships".

I guess my real question is why I can't do this with AV's when the manual seems to suggest that I can. Is there some fundamental property of AV's, or perhaps certain classes of AV's, that prevents them from transporting air groups even when they have sufficient cargo capacity?

AVs can operate floatplanes. AKVs are dedicated air group transporters.

[Zoetermeer]

6.3.2.3.1 SHIP TYPE CARRYING ABILITY TABLE:

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: dave sindel

ORIGINAL: Zoetermeer

If so, maybe the manual is wrong here?

I'm not sure on this point. I have never tried using an AV to transport an air group, so I have no experience in that regard to help.

AVs are support ships for float planes. A few of them can accommodate a small number of aircraft on board, but most cannot. The AV goes to the remote location where you need support for search aircraft and you either fly in the search aircraft or deliver them by Air Transport TF.

AKVs are specifically designed to transport aircraft without dismantling them. Put them in an Air Transport TF, dock it, and load any ONE unrestricted squadron you want to move. That happens instantly and you can sail away without cargo or leave them docked to load cargo (which is usually needed anyway).
Make sure the destination port can dock the ship, or have it go to a nearby larger port and unload - then fly the aircraft to their post.

AK/xAK types can also be in an Air Transport TF, but aircraft must be partially dismantled to load and will take a day to reassemble when they arrive at destination. One squadron per ship. I think you need air support squads to do the reassembly.

A Transport TF with AK/xAK/xAKL types can also load aircraft but they must be further dismantled and it takes 3 days to reassemble them at destination.

[dmaramba]

Zoetermeer, I just looked at the Ship Type Carrying Ability Table in the manual and yes, it does say an AV can carry an air group as cargo. I just tried it in my game and it didn't work for me, either. I got the same "unable to allocate any load to any ships" message that you did. (FWIW, the table also says an AG cannot carry an air group.)

Anyway, don't use an aircraft tender (AV) to carry an air group. Any AP or AK type will do the job nicely, and you have plenty of these. Use a transport or cargo TF. Makes no difference.

The best way to transport an air group, IMO, is to use an air transport task force made up of AKVs. The groups will transport as cargo, but when they arrive they will be ready to fly.

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: Zoetermeer

6.3.2.3.1 SHIP TYPE CARRYING ABILITY TABLE:

This is a little vague. They mean planes equipped with floats. And very few can carry any. Mostly, park them at an island and transfer float planes to them within the limits of the ship.

BB nailed down the rest....GP

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: dmaramba

Anyway, don't use an aircraft tender (AV) to carry an air group. Any AP or AK type will do the job nicely, and you have plenty of these. Use a transport or cargo TF. Makes no difference.

Any AP, xAP, APA, Cannot carry aircraft. xAK, AK, AKV, CAN carry aircraft....GP

[BBfanboy]

You cannot load aircraft on a Cargo TF. They are equipment, not supplies.

You can use AP/xAP types to load aircraft but I never do - they are too much needed for troops.

Re: the AVs, look at AV Langley or Wright and on the right side you should see that each can carry up to 4 aircraft, and they can even operate these at sea like a cruiser float plane. But most allied AVs do not carry aircraft. I think the Japanese AVs all carry several aircraft - more than 4.

The developers probably considered that AGs and other support ships that are allowed in a Transport TF would not have big cargo hatches, holds, nor free deck space to accommodate aircraft.

[Zoetermeer]

ORIGINAL: dmaramba

Zoetermeer, I just looked at the Ship Type Carrying Ability Table in the manual and yes, it does say an AV can carry an air group as cargo. I just tried it in my game and it didn't work for me, either. I got the same "unable to allocate any load to any ships" message that you did. (FWIW, the table also says an AG cannot carry an air group.)

Anyway, don't use an aircraft tender (AV) to carry an air group. Any AP or AK type will do the job nicely, and you have plenty of these. Use a transport or cargo TF. Makes no difference.

The best way to transport an air group, IMO, is to use an air transport task force made up of AKVs. The groups will transport as cargo, but when they arrive they will be ready to fly.

Thanks, that is super helpful. I'll just stick to doing that where I can. I've read AAR's where people use their CV's to shuttle groups back and forth, for example from PH to Midway early in the war; but it seems like a misuse of CV's to do this.

[dmaramba]

BBfanboy, respectfully disagree [;)]. I load air groups onto cargo TFs all the time. I did it just now, to make sure it works. The air groups load as cargo, and then the ships load supplies to the limit of their capacity. It's a handy way for the Allies to get air groups from the West Coast to the South Seas!

Stock scenario 1, Allies vs AI Japan. Game version One Seven Eleven Twenty-four. No betas.