Shy panzers

[UP844]

This one happened while I was playing the "No Other Choice" scenario, but I also saw it happen in other scenarios. All the VP hexes are in Russian control, so I would expect a massive attack by the AI, but this was not the case.

After I moved away a Russian squad that was being used for target practice by a Panther, no German AFV appeared (except a PzIV and a 251 on the extreme right, not shown in the images). They spent the whole game starting and stopping in the same hex (see the two upper images). German infantry, conversely, pushed its attack hard, but was wiped out by the unopposed Russian tanks (lower image).

The 251 could see at least a T-34 but remained in the hex even when I opened fire on it. I also tried replaying the scenario after setting the orders of all the Germans AFVs to "ATTACK", but nothing changed.

@Big Ivan: nice scenarios, but please don't set up mortars and artillery guns inside buildings .

[UP844]

Well, it looks like I got what I asked for... [:D][:D][:D]

Thanks a lot, Peter!!!
(now I only have to figure out how to survive this horde of updated, determined and bloodthirsty Panzers)

[Peter Fisla]

So...hmmm...I'm bit confused here...UP844, so you like the UPDATE2 AI being a bit more aggressive or am I missing something here? Keep in mind that Half-tracks are support weapons, they are not going to charge T-34s

[pensfanvw]

Looks like you have some serious worries now UP844! Keep us updated how it goes.

Alan

[Paullus]

Great UP844! Have fun stopping those Panzers [:)]

[UP844]

@Peter: I LOVE Update 2 [&o].

I will post an AAR later, now I have a Tiger (on the hunt for me [:D]) prowling just outside my HQ

[Paullus]

[:D]

[Peter Fisla]

[MrClock]

Same issue (ToTH 1.0.52) with "Counterattack at Carentan" scenario.



It's impossible for german IA to win this scenario.

[UP844]

The issue I reported (and that was corrected in v.1.0.52) concerned some AFVs which did nothing at all: they remained in their starting hex, sometimes starting and stopping but never leaving that hex.

AI behaviour still has some issues which I think must be addressed (see HERE) but I think this one is solved.

The attached screenshot taken at the last turn (v.1.0.52). The Marder started a sort of kamikaze attack and fell to a 57mm shot. The StuGs spent the first 3 turns firing on the two bazooka squads from their starting hexes: only after they killed both, they charged forward and stood still where they are shown in the image below. They initially fired on the US squads, then they shifted their fire on the Shermans (killing one in the process).

By the way, even though I would adopt different tactics (I would kill the AT Gun first using the infantry, not wasting time with low chance shots), this is not an easy scenario for the Germans.

[rico21]

My 99%,
It seems than more a panzer(PZIV) fight against a bigger(IS3) more the % of shooting is small.
Here about half panzers fired!
Up8444 name this Shy! [8D][:D]

[UP844]

Rico, I am afraid I have not fully understood what you mean. I think - and I have repeatedly stated - Panzer shyness has been solved with the 1.0.51 version.

I will make some tests on my own, but I do not think Pz IV have a significant chance to pierce the IS-2 front armor. In this case, I suppose only the Pz IV that can hit the side aspect of the IS-2s will fire, while the others will (hopefully [:D]) attempt to gain a better position (I seriously doubt they can make it).

P.S. The IS-2ms killed several Panthers in "Big Cats at Bay" [:D].

[rico21]

tu ne me comprends pas car mon anglais est pauvre
(c'est une vieille maladie française![:D]).
Plus sérieusement je ne parle pas ici de mouvement que le patch a corrigé mais de
tirs.
Mon hypothèse est que;
Des chars moyens tirent sur des chars myens ennemis,
Des chars moyens tirent peu sur des chars lourds car sans doute comme tu dis
ils attendent une meilleure opportunité.
C'est dommage car historiquement ces tirs sans espoirs pouvaient parfois immobilisés le char lourd ou sonner les occupants ou encore détériorer les systèmes de tir...ça rendrait l'AI plus agressive
Conclusion après avoir résolu le SHY mouvement il faut résoudre le SHY de
tir!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You do not understand me because my English is poor
(It's an old French disease![:D]).
More seriously I do not speak here of movement that the patch corrected but of
Shots.
My hypothesis is that;
Medium tanks fire on medium enemy tanks,
Medium tanks shoot little on heavy tanks because no doubt as you say
They are waiting for a better opportunity.
It is a pity because historically these hopeless shots could sometimes immobilize the heavy tank or sound the occupants or deteriorate the
Shooting systems ...It would make the AI more aggressive
Conclusion after solving the SHY movement it is necessary to solve the SHY of
shoot!!!

"P.S. The IS-2ms killed several Panthers in "Big Cats at Bay" ."
It was happened in the real fight...You respected History![;)]
And had you win?[:D][:D]
[:D]

[UP844]

Hello Rico,
no problem at all. If you want to read something really awful, I can write in French [:D].

I made some firing tests with 10 AI-controlled Panzers vs 10 Russian tanks, with the results shown in the attached image.

All PzIVs fired to the T-34 directly in front of them (with few results: in this occasion, no T-34 was killed, in other tests 1 or 2 were killed, with some more suffering Immobilisation or Shock).

When Russians got IS-2m's, both PzIVs and Panthers only fired when they could hit the side aspect of the IS-2m's. This also happened when I replaced Panthers with King Tigers, even though the latter can easily pierce the front armor of the IS-2m (I got 5 kills out of 10 shots).

I think the AFV do not move because there are no VP hexes in our maps: in all the scenarios I played since v.1.0.52 has been released, AI-controlled AFVs have been quite aggressive (with the possible exception of US Shermans in Canicatti Ridge [&:]).

As regards to "Big Cats at Bay" I made a couple serious mistakes, but managed to take both VP hexes and to kill enough AFVs (all Panthers, several halftracks and the armored car), so I achieved a minor victory, even though I lost all T-34/85, 2 SU-152 [:(] and a SU-100.

The IS-2m performed extremely well, killing 3 of the 4 Panthers (a T-34/85 killed the last one with a side shot) as well as large amounts of German infantry (it's nice to go around with a 122mm gun [:D]). The King Tigers did little: one of them killed a T-34/85 at long range, but only one of them started moving in the last turn (but it wasn't able to reach the position where my IS-2m's were waiting for it [:(]).

[MrClock]

In my game the stugs fire but they doesn't move and they doesn't help the infantry to take the VP hexes. They fire only if the targets are in LOS.

[UP844]

As far as I know (but this is only a guess of mine), the StuGs in "Counterattack at Carentan" will fire until they kill or break the bazooka-armed half-squads, while they do not appear to care about the 57mm AT gun. Only once the bazooka teams are neutralised either way, they will move forward. On the other hand, the Marder III (which is a very fragile piece of equipment, with laughable armor, a permanently CE crew, no MGs and a very limited HE ammo supply) almost invariably dashes forward only to be destroyed by the American AT gun [&:].

I will post an AAR later.

[UP844]

See HERE for the AAR of a game where the AI played the Germans.

In my opinion, the AI will not move as long as it can fire on a target with a reasonable chance to kill it. Of course, its assessment of a "reasonable chance" may differ from what a human might think [;)].