US Invades Kwajalein causes US Entry Action - Japan militarizes Marshalls

[BrianJH]

This can't be right, surely.

US invades Kwajalein is causing US Entry Action: Japan militarizes Marshalls.

[BrianJH]

Saved Game

- invade Kwajalein with the US division.

- Skip Land Combat declarations.

[Centuur]

Thanks for catching this one.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

This doesn't look like a bug to me.

The US Entry Actions continue to occur until the US is at war with all the Axis major powers. In the game, the US is only at war with Japan. As soon as the US invades a hex in the Marshalls a land combat occurs (Japan is the defender), then this action occurs - provided it hasn't already occurred.

[paulderynck]

Japan has to move a unit into the Marshalls for that action to occur.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Japan has to move a unit into the Marshalls for that action to occur.

Technically yes. But aren't there Japanese 'defenders' in the hex when it is attacked?

[BrianJH]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Japan has to move a unit into the Marshalls for that action to occur.

Technically yes. But aren't there Japanese 'defenders' in the hex when it is attacked?

No, there are no Japanese units located in Kwajalein, or anywhere else in the Marshals. If there were, wouldn't that have already triggered the US Entry Action the moment they were moved there?

If you're implying 'defenders' as being the notional unit, the US Entry Action triggers before the Japanese player gets to decide whether he wants that present or not.

Here's a screen grab of what you see after loading the save game I posted above.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The decision about how to code this was made by others, before I became involved with MWIF - that is, before 2004. I am always reluctant to vacate those decisions without a really good reason.

[Centuur]

I'll side with Brian Brain here. The moment the Japanese include the notional in the Marshalls should be the moment that they militarize it. The reason for this is clear: a notional unit is a unit. When it isn't there, there is no Japanese unit in the Marshalls...

[paulderynck]

It would likely be more complicated to code it so it's connected with the decision to deny or accept the notional then it would be to code it so only an actual Japanese unit occupying a hex in the Marshalls triggers it.

What about a notional that is OoS and thus worth zero?

Anyway the intent of this US Entry Action is for pre-war to provide some intimidation to Japan not to base CVs there for a higher surprise box port strike on the US west coast (among other reasons). However per the FAQ, all applicable US Entry Actions continue to be operative until the US is at war with all Axis powers.

The rule is very clear:

Japan militarises Marshalls - this occurs as soon as Japan moves the first unit into any hex on the border of the Marshalls sea area.

You don't need to move anything to have a notional in a hex you own.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It would likely be more complicated to code it so it's connected with the decision to deny or accept the notional then it would be to code it so only an actual Japanese unit occupying a hex in the Marshalls triggers it.

What about a notional that is OoS and thus worth zero?

Anyway the intent of this US Entry Action is for pre-war to provide some intimidation to Japan not to base CVs there for a higher surprise box port strike on the US west coast (among other reasons). However per the FAQ, all applicable US Entry Actions continue to be operative until the US is at war with all Axis powers.

The rule is very clear:

Japan militarises Marshalls - this occurs as soon as Japan moves the first unit into any hex on the border of the Marshalls sea area.

You don't need to move anything to have a notional in a hex you own.

However, one doesn't move a notional. I would think that a notional is always there; it just usually has no effect on the game.

[davidachamberlain]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The decision about how to code this was made by others, before I became involved with MWIF - that is, before 2004. I am always reluctant to vacate those decisions without a really good reason.

This definitely looks like a bug to me. The US should not be triggering Japanese US entry actions. Only Japan should be triggering those.

I assume since the US is trying to invade a Japan hex, that either Japan has already declared war on US (or the reverse) or this is incorrectly being triggered when the US should not even be allowed to make that move.

I suggest you should look into this further. It is probably showing the wrong text box as it should either not be allowed to happen at all (as in before US and Japan are at war) or if they are at war, it should have no blocking message at all.

I looked at the US entry options and Japan already militarized the Marshalls (#3) and already declared war on the US (#13).

There should no longer be any Japan related US entry actions related to the Marshalls, since those are both irrelevant.

Dave

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: davidachamberlain

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The decision about how to code this was made by others, before I became involved with MWIF - that is, before 2004. I am always reluctant to vacate those decisions without a really good reason.

This definitely looks like a bug to me. The US should not be triggering Japanese US entry actions. Only Japan should be triggering those.

I assume since the US is trying to invade a Japan hex, that either Japan has already declared war on US (or the reverse) or this is incorrectly being triggered when the US should not even be allowed to make that move.

I suggest you should look into this further. It is probably showing the wrong text box as it should either not be allowed to happen at all (as in before US and Japan are at war) or if they are at war, it should have no blocking message at all.

I looked at the US entry options and Japan already militarized the Marshalls (#3) and already declared war on the US (#13).

There should no longer be any Japan related US entry actions related to the Marshalls, since those are both irrelevant.

Dave

The last sentence isn't true. If a chit get's added due to f.e. the Japanese taking Singapore, when at war with the US, this influences the chances that the US can DoW the Euroaxis....

[davidachamberlain]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: davidachamberlain

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The decision about how to code this was made by others, before I became involved with MWIF - that is, before 2004. I am always reluctant to vacate those decisions without a really good reason.

This definitely looks like a bug to me. The US should not be triggering Japanese US entry actions. Only Japan should be triggering those.

I assume since the US is trying to invade a Japan hex, that either Japan has already declared war on US (or the reverse) or this is incorrectly being triggered when the US should not even be allowed to make that move.

I suggest you should look into this further. It is probably showing the wrong text box as it should either not be allowed to happen at all (as in before US and Japan are at war) or if they are at war, it should have no blocking message at all.

I looked at the US entry options and Japan already militarized the Marshalls (#3) and already declared war on the US (#13).

There should no longer be any Japan related US entry actions related to the Marshalls, since those are both irrelevant.

Dave

The last sentence isn't true. If a chit get's added due to f.e. the Japanese taking Singapore, when at war with the US, this influences the chances that the US can DoW the Euroaxis....

Then help me to understand why (in this case) with the Marshalls already being militarized (3rd option chosen) and US already being at war with Japan (also at war with CW), why when the US tries to "invade" the Marshalls that a message regarding Japan militarizing the Marshalls pops up.

That popup should not happen again in the game since it happened earlier in the game.

You can not go and Militarize the Marshalls multiple times and the US invading should not Militarize the Marshalls, either.

Again, as I mentioned, this has to be a bug.

I can not see what event should be invoked from this action, but it should not be this one, regardless.

Dave

[Courtenay]

What is happening is that the US is triggering the activation of a Japanese notional. Whoever originally coded this rule(it wasn't Steve) considered a notional unit to be a unit for the purposes of the Japanese entry action.

I disagree with this ruling, but it is not obviously incorrect -- it requires a rules interpretation. I feel that the notional unit was always there, and thus should not be considered to have moved into Kwajalein. However, I have often been wrong in my interpretations about WiF rules. The only way to be certain what the rule is would be to ask Harry.

[Centuur]

If I understand davidachamberlain correctly, that Japan did militarize the Marshalls earlier in the game already, so with or without an invasion, there should not be a entry roll at all.

Now I can't check this in his gamesave, but Steve probably can check that, to see if there is a bug.

And on the notional being a unit or not where militarizing the Marshalls are concerned, I think someone needs to put this forward to the rules committee.

[davidachamberlain]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

If I understand davidachamberlain correctly, that Japan did militarize the Marshalls earlier in the game already, so with or without an invasion, there should not be a entry roll at all.

Now I can't check this in his gamesave, but Steve probably can check that, to see if there is a bug.

And on the notional being a unit or not where militarizing the Marshalls are concerned, I think someone needs to put this forward to the rules committee.

In the saved game, you can see Options (Ctrl-E or Info > US Entry Options).
It shows which Options were taken (Chosen=Yes).

From the options taken and the map, it is clearer that UK is at war with Japan and the US invasion can not occur on the Japanese location without being at war with Japan, as well.

At this point, the consideration for the notional unit is irrelevant since the Militarizing the Marshalls option was previously taken.

"I" believe that once US and Japan are at war, even if the Marshalls was not militarized, it should not matter.

Dave

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: davidachamberlain

"I" believe that once US and Japan are at war, even if the Marshalls was not militarized, it should not matter.

Dave

Oh yes David, it does matter (unless you were referring to the notional doing the triggering, then I agree). US Entry actions are always rolled for the first time they occur, providing the US is not at war with all of Italy, Germany and Japan (exception: occupying Chinese cities can occur and re-occur if China takes them back). It is the US entry options exclusively against these Axis powers which are deemed to have been taken once the US goes to war with them (exception: Northern Ireland).

So suppose US and Japan are at war, but the US is not at war with Germany and/or Italy, and the Marshalls action has not yet occurred (and I realize that is not the case here), and then the Japanese move a unit into the Marshalls. That definitely triggers a roll for a chit and if the US gets a chit, half its entry value is still useful against the other Axis powers.

[davidachamberlain]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: davidachamberlain

"I" believe that once US and Japan are at war, even if the Marshalls was not militarized, it should not matter.

Dave

Oh yes David, it does matter (unless you were referring to the notional doing the triggering, then I agree). US Entry actions are always rolled for the first time they occur, providing the US is not at war with all of Italy, Germany and Japan (exception: occupying Chinese cities can occur and re-occur if China takes them back). It is the US entry options exclusively against these Axis powers which are deemed to have been taken once the US goes to war with them (exception: Northern Ireland).

So suppose US and Japan are at war, but the US is not at war with Germany and/or Italy, and the Marshalls action has not yet occurred (and I realize that is not the case here), and then the Japanese move a unit into the Marshalls. That definitely triggers a roll for a chit and if the US gets a chit, half its entry value is still useful against the other Axis powers.

I just found the clarification for that in the Rules as Coded book (section 13.3.2, page 92 first paragraph) "When the U.S. goes to war with a major power you are treated as having chosen every unchosen entry option aimed at that major power. You still roll for each of the options but don't have to moave a marker to the tension pool when called for unless you so desire (except for your declaration of ware; see 9.4). You do this on a case by case basis."

Dave

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: davidachamberlain

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: davidachamberlain

"I" believe that once US and Japan are at war, even if the Marshalls was not militarized, it should not matter.

Dave

Oh yes David, it does matter (unless you were referring to the notional doing the triggering, then I agree). US Entry actions are always rolled for the first time they occur, providing the US is not at war with all of Italy, Germany and Japan (exception: occupying Chinese cities can occur and re-occur if China takes them back). It is the US entry options exclusively against these Axis powers which are deemed to have been taken once the US goes to war with them (exception: Northern Ireland).

So suppose US and Japan are at war, but the US is not at war with Germany and/or Italy, and the Marshalls action has not yet occurred (and I realize that is not the case here), and then the Japanese move a unit into the Marshalls. That definitely triggers a roll for a chit and if the US gets a chit, half its entry value is still useful against the other Axis powers.

I just found the clarification for that in the Rules as Coded book (section 13.3.2, page 92 first paragraph) "When the U.S. goes to war with a major power you are treated as having chosen every unchosen entry option aimed at that major power. You still roll for each of the options but don't have to moave a marker to the tension pool when called for unless you so desire (except for your declaration of ware; see 9.4). You do this on a case by case basis."

Dave

Yes, but Japan militarizes the Marshalls is not a US entry option; it is a US entry action. These are two totally different things. US entry actions still have their effect until you are at war with all Axis powers.