Snow in Central Europe in June

[adarbrauner]

Does anyone have ever experienced snow in Central Ukraina in June??!!?????[&:][&:][&:][&:]

[PeteGarnett]

Had the same in current game - thankfully I'm the Allies!

[juntoalmar]

Do you mean, on my holidays? [:D]

[adarbrauner]

Interesting to know why the designers of the game have extended artic like climate in Central Europe!!!
(and if it could be amended)

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: PeteGarnett

Had the same in current game - thankfully I'm the Allies!

You can be penalized, and heavily as well, even as the allies who are defending: for example, freezed rivers!

[Orm]

freezed rivers!

[&:]

Did you perhaps mean frozen lakes? I do not think that there is such a thing as frozen rivers.

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: Orm

freezed rivers!

[&:]

Did you perhaps mean frozen lakes? I do not think that there is such a thing as frozen rivers.

If so, I'd suggest it as a modification for next version of World in flames.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The weather roll is for May/June. Given that it is the 5th impulse, You're probably still in May (theoretically).

Note that the probabilities for the next weather roll are 90% for Fine and 10% for Rain in the Arctic.

The Impulse counter advancing by 2 is more distressing for the Germans - the turn might end far sooner than normal.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: Orm

freezed rivers!

[&:]

Did you perhaps mean frozen lakes? I do not think that there is such a thing as frozen rivers. Remember the scale for MWIF: each hex is ~90 kilometers across. The rivers shown on the map are all very formidable (i.e., wide).

If so, I'd suggest it as a modification for next version of World in flames.

Rivers only affect land combat in MWIF. When the weather is freezing, frozen rivers are most likely still a major problem for the attacker.

---

As for where the weather zone boundaries are, that is totally data driven by the CSV file on map terrain. So it could be modified without any impact on any of the program's code. Not that I recommend doing that - and I am certainly not going to get involved with any such project[:D].

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: Orm

freezed rivers!

[&:]

Did you perhaps mean frozen lakes? I do not think that there is such a thing as frozen rivers.

If so, I'd suggest it as a modification for next version of World in flames.

warspite1

This game - in its various versions - has been around a very long time. I'd give it a chance before jumping to hasty conclusions. It is simply the best war game ever made. FACT.

[Centuur]

There are some more strange things occurring if one thinks that the weatherconditions in MWIF are the exact ones which you are rolling for in an area. The designers of World in Flames have designed the game with weather conditions in place which will effect the capabilities of the armed forces in an area during the impulses in the turns.
The names they gave the weather conditions are abstract and in no way reflect the exact weather taking place in a certain hex. They were chosen to reflect existing weather types to make the game playable. After all: it's easier to say that it snows, than to say that the weather is "stage 4"...

[Joseignacio]

You need to draw the line somewhere.

Part of the artic climate is drawn in what we could call West Ukraine, but also Easter Poland and northern Rumania. But I mainly think of it as Northern Ukrania, not Central Ukrania (it's just North of Kiev)

I guess you could have had 20 or 40 climate areas in the map but there are only 6 for simplification purposes, and in except in asia and Oceania maps there are only 4. So I guess it seemed more logical to the designer that in May the climate in Northern and Western Ukraine and Eastern Poland the climate is more like in Moscow that like in France and Northern Spain.

So I think it's ok, considering there are not 20 climate areas. And that the possibility to have snow in that month is really small. Don't remember even if the previous periods have to have been real bad to, so it would be a really sever winter weather, which would be reflected by modifiers to the dice roll that may have led to that possibility.

[adarbrauner]

Jose, I still think that "Artic zone" should not extend to those areas, and not even to norther Russia upto the latitude of Baltic state including probably Leningrad and Moscow as well. Very harsh weather in winter, yes, but not at the levels of "artic". In that way, you'd never see snow in June(??!!!)


Steve Hokansen, your work is just monumental.

[etsadler]

May I gently suggest that it is possible to take the definition of the areas and the name of the weather too literally.

Arctic is, to me, a reference to areas that can, and often do, experience extreme cold. It is obviously not, and never intended to be, a representation of solely those areas north of the arctic circle.

Likewise Snow does not always mean snow, but whatever combination of weather attributes that, for that game turn, produce the impact to movement, supply, and combat that the designers decided was appropriate. Snow is certainly a lesser impacting weather event than Storm, different than rain, etc.

All things have to be called something so that they can be referenced and applied, but there is no need to take the labels litterally.

[Joseignacio]

I agree abot the name, it's obvious that the area is not purely, and of course not even mostly arctic, although it includes the arctic.

However for me snow is snow. There are other weathers that are more related to what you speak of (mud, wind, ...) like storms.

In fact, I don't think it's really surprising to have snow in North Ukrania or East Poland in May. Very unprobable yes, but not awesome.

That's what the game reflects. IIRW there are not a 10% possibilities in truth, I guess for that climate to be possible, to have more than 0% possibilities of snow in May you need to have a "+1" or "+2" in the previous month climate (roll). It means that the probablity goes down to 2% maybe. So I think it's mostly accurate.

[paulderynck]

I live in a place that is considered in the "arctic zone". Normally the golf courses here are open from mid-March to late-October. But... in my lifetime, it has snowed here in every month of the year, July and August included.

[adarbrauner]

To be sincere: those extreme weather excursions in that area are "killing" the realism of the campaign. such harsh weather , prolongued for a good number of simulated weeks in the middle of summer, are making the Barbarossa operation virtually impossible;

if the phisycal board game the map has the same weather boundaries, I'd agree with my opponent to disregard such inconveninence - such as snow and blizzard in summer - should they arise as a consequence of a die roll.

I'd just suggest to ADG, if i could, to consider the creation of another weather zone with different parameters, if they'd like to simulate the climate peculiarities of areas like Central Europe- Asia- rather then include them in further extreme weather habits such the Arctic ones.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

To be sincere: those extreme weather excursions in that area are "killing" the realism of the campaign. such harsh weather , prolongued for a good number of simulated weeks in the middle of summer, are making the Barbarossa operation virtually impossible;

if the phisycal board game the map has the same weather boundaries, I'd agree with my opponent to disregard such inconveninence - such as snow and blizzard in summer - should they arise as a consequence of a die roll.

I'd just suggest to ADG, if i could, to consider the creation of another weather zone with different parameters, if they'd like to simulate the climate peculiarities of areas like Central Europe- Asia- rather then include them in further extreme weather habits such the Arctic ones.

warspite1

Honestly adarbrauner, if this kills the 'realism', then I wonder if this is the game for you. I hope you can come to terms with it and embrace this wonderful game for what it is. But if realism is a must then I fear you are not going to like (a few examples):

- Weather
- The fact that cruisers are ASW ships
- Monitors can't effectively shore bombard
- Many of the ship and air factors are skewed as a balancing item
- The Japanese economy takes steroids and can not only build Yamato class carriers - but can build aircraft for them too!
- Countries that were neutral can be attacked

You say the weather is making Barbarossa impossible - well that's realistic isn't it? [;)]

But seriously The poor weather that makes Barbarossa impossible can work both ways - and can hamper the Allies coming back. This game does not depend on one single piece of luck. The unpredicatability of this game is its beauty - it is infinitely replayable.

Give it more of a chance - if you can accept some liberties that make the game balanced, and one that is winnable by both sides, then you will I am sure, enjoy the wonderful mechanics that make this game what it is. Best. Game. Ever. I may have said that before [:D]

[etsadler]

I appreciate the frustration the weather can cause. I think it would be nice to have a "historical weather" option for those that want such.

To the question at hand though, as a further thought the weather listed does not have to persist for the entire period of the impulse to be impactfull. One day of snow can upset weeks of planning.

I did a bit of light research about the weather in Kiev as a rough representation of the southern end of the Arctic zone. Kiev has an average of 0.2 snowy days in May. So roughly once every 5 years there is a snowy day in May. That one day could severely impact planned operations, so I personally have no issue with the possibility being in the game. There can also be once in 100 year floods, once in 500 year earthquakes, any number of improbable events can potentially occur, and, like Warspite, I consider that an asset of the game. However, as stated I think an alternate, historical, weather could also be made available and would be a good addition to the game.

[adarbrauner]

One impulse should simulate one week and a half, not only one day, that's the point.

Dear Warspite: I'm playing meanwhile only the Barbarossa scenario, solo, to well learn the game that I've installed lees than a week ago, and I am enjoing a lot.

Cannot though honestly hide perplexity, meanwhile, regarding the feature we are talking about.

Consider furthermore, that this scenario ends in January-February 1942 only.

If you are going to meet one or two realistically, but not so much game mechanics wise, unprobable (to say the least) weather situations in the summer, as Germany you are pretty screwed out. No way to ever get close to Moscow, while a very hard and tough time and expectations to make it to Kiev or Leningrad (not to mention, again, that experiencing protracted snowy or blizzard weather in June - in Moscow as well not only Ukraina I think, but the Russian forumites here may provide a more sound opinion - , well, simply not true).

Edit: Cruisers ASW ships; I read that the unit is thought to simulate a squadron of DDs embedded with the ship, so in this optic it should well make sense.