Shore Bombardment- number of units allowed

[adarbrauner]

Hello to all and good morning-afternoon.

My first landing in game (red encircled in the screenshot).

In the shore bomardment subphase, though, only the Tirpitz group, out of other 2 organized surface vessels groups, is seemingly allowed to provide shore bombardment.

What wrong here?

Thank you for the answers.

[adarbrauner]

In addition to the previous question:

the Finnish airplanes in range refuse to provide ground support too the German landing Corp, surprisingly for me. Aren't they supposed to fully cooperate witht the Germans???

Edit, 3rd question: had i ordered an airdrop in the same hex, would this have triggered an additional notional unit to defend, or rather not, only one defender for the whole attack?

[Joseignacio]

Well, there should be no number limitation in the version of the rules MWIF uses. Later versions do have.

What happens there is that you are only in the 2 box. From there you have a "1" point of bombardment penalty (see the 1 in yellow in the 2 box), and a "1" extra penalty in weather not fine (se the * in yellow in that box as well).

Because of this your ships can support with:

Tirpitz: 3 - 2 = 1 factor
Admiral Hipper: 1 - 2 = 0 factors
Schleswing -Holstein: 2 - 2 = 0 factors

Anyway, supposing you had been able to use the 6 factors (3+2+1), which is impossible in this case because the two latter move too few to be in high positions, ..., your unit could only receive as much as his factors when attacking. Since it is invading and it's not a marine 8/2=4, you'd only been able to use 4 of the 6 support points.

[Joseignacio]

As for the finnish planes, yes they fully coopertae with GE.

I cannot guess what's the weather like in Estonia, but it's not fine wheather. If it was storm (or blizzard), they cannot fly there for a support action.

Another reason could have been not to have more air moves (depending on the Action you took, remember? [:)] ). Finnish planes count against the GE limit.

[adarbrauner]

Ok first explanation, shore bombardment, apart for the words "which is impossible in this case because the two latter move too few to be in high position" which sincerely i did not understood.

Finish airplanes: The weather is the same you see in the screenshot, i.e. rain, and you can see even the Finnish airplanes there. There were plenty of air moves allocated, as a reproof German long range airplanes had to be used in place of the planned Finnish; maybe I saved the screenshot maybe not, and the save is still available.


What about a paradrop in concurrance with a landing? Shall this trigger a second notional or not?

[Centuur]

No, there is only one notional unit, regardless of the number of units paradropping or invading the hex.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Ok first explanation, shore bombardment, apart for the words "which is impossible in this case because the two latter move too few to be in high position" which sincerely i did not understood.

Finish airplanes: The weather is the same you see in the screenshot, i.e. rain, and you can see even the Finnish airplanes there. There were plenty of air moves allocated, as a reproof German long range airplanes had to be used in place of the planned Finnish; maybe I saved the screenshot maybe not, and the save is still available.


What about a paradrop in concurrance with a landing? Shall this trigger a second notional or not?

First, I said both other ships but I was mistaken, I thought they were both your elderly battleships. So finally that goes for the Schleswing -Holstein only. What I meant is that it has not enough moves to come from port to sea (1 move) plus going to a most favourable position inside the sea (4 box) algong with the others, who have enough movements to do so (Tirpitz 5, the other 6).

In the 4 box, it has no fix penalty and the weather does not affect the bombing factors.

The planes... at the moment I cannot guess why. At least the bomber I can see. The fighter, if you had selected to send it to bomb as well instead of escorting, IIRW has a range penalty (50%)that would make it impossible to send it there. But the bomber, with rain only, supplied, with enough air moves, ..., at the moment I don't know.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

As for the shore bombardment, using more than the land combat factors of the invading/attacking units is pointless - the excess are simply ignored.

For the bomber, ground support doesn't require air missions. But the program may be eliminating it from consideration since its 2 tactical points would be halved for weather and halved again for forest: 2.0 => 0.5.

EDIT: Jose had the right answer about the shore bombardment.[:)]

[ACMW]

Nothing to do with limit on Fins leaving Finland is it?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: ACMW

Nothing to do with limit on Fins leaving Finland is it?

Only logical answer. Thank you. [:)] [&o]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: ACMW

Nothing to do with limit on Fins leaving Finland is it?

Shouldn't matter. I know for certain that they can ground strike - I did that in a game yesterday.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: ACMW

Nothing to do with limit on Fins leaving Finland is it?

Shouldn't matter. I know for certain that they can ground strike - I did that in a game yesterday.

But it depends on how many Finnish units that are outside Finland.

And in that game the Finnish borderlands, by the look of it, is considered outside Finland.

Aircraft performing missions outside Finland count against the restriction.


Cut from RAC: 19.4 Minor country units
....
Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor
country land or aircraft unit from inside the home country to outside the home country, if half or more of its on- map
land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see
19.6.2).
Example: Rumania has 4 land units and 1 aircraft unit on the map. You can move a unit out of Rumania if at
least 3 of those units (remember, halves round up) are presently in Rumania. They could be 3 land units or 2 land
units and an aircraft unit. Its naval units are not restricted.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

As for the shore bombardment, using more than the land combat factors of the invading/attacking units is pointless - the excess are simply ignored.

For the bomber, ground support doesn't require air missions. But the program may be eliminating it from consideration since its 2 tactical points would be halved for weather and halved again for forest: 2.0 => 0.5.

EDIT: Jose had the right answer about the shore bombardment.[:)]

Right! I always forget that in my board games. They don't need a mission (the only case, except interceptions and escorts IIRW) Well, until I have been reminded a couple of times anyway... [:)]

0.5 rounds to 1. Or maybe it has to do with some optionals?

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: ACMW

Nothing to do with limit on Fins leaving Finland is it?

Only logical answer. Thank you. [:)] [&o]

Nop. They can bomb from Finland and be back, as Steve said, it doesn't affect the number of units staying outside, as it would if they had Exited" to former USSR occupied hexes.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: ACMW

Nothing to do with limit on Fins leaving Finland is it?

Shouldn't matter. I know for certain that they can ground strike - I did that in a game yesterday.

But it depends on how many Finnish units that are outside Finland.

And in that game the Finnish borderlands, by the look of it, is considered outside Finland.

Aircraft performing missions outside Finland count against the restriction.


Cut from RAC: 19.4 Minor country units
....
Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor
country land or aircraft unit from inside the home country to outside the home country, if half or more of its on- map
land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see
19.6.2).
Example: Rumania has 4 land units and 1 aircraft unit on the map. You can move a unit out of Rumania if at
least 3 of those units (remember, halves round up) are presently in Rumania. They could be 3 land units or 2 land
units and an aircraft unit. Its naval units are not restricted.

They are writing on "moving" as in "relocating". Not "executing a bombing mission", this is not considered a move but a part in an battle (if you see the game sequence).

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets



Shouldn't matter. I know for certain that they can ground strike - I did that in a game yesterday.

But it depends on how many Finnish units that are outside Finland.

And in that game the Finnish borderlands, by the look of it, is considered outside Finland.

Aircraft performing missions outside Finland count against the restriction.


Cut from RAC: 19.4 Minor country units
....
Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor
country land or aircraft unit from inside the home country to outside the home country, if half or more of its on- map
land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see
19.6.2).
Example: Rumania has 4 land units and 1 aircraft unit on the map. You can move a unit out of Rumania if at
least 3 of those units (remember, halves round up) are presently in Rumania. They could be 3 land units or 2 land
units and an aircraft unit. Its naval units are not restricted.

They are writing on "moving" as in "relocating". Not "executing a bombing mission", this is not considered a move but a part in an battle (if you see the game sequence).

If they didn't mean move, why did they say "move"? It is not like FTC, which explicitly says is only evaluated at the end of the step. I have always played that move means "move" here, and not allowed planes to bomb outside their home minor country if they would go over the limit. I might be wrong here (I have been wrong many times in the past), but I would strenuously argue that the plane could not bomb in this situation.

[Joseignacio]

Haha, I am not going to argue on this. [:)]

IMO, Wif establishes some phases to move by land and by sea, which are different from attack phases and their subphases like ground stricking.

Now, for planes, and following the same philosophy, a plane's move is it's rebase. Here it moves from a previous hex to another one and nothing else. Just like corps and ships do.

Bombing (or returning to base after bombing-where it also may "go back" to a different hex from where he set for the mission) they are not solely changing hexes.

So technically the Finnish plane is not moving from it's hex, since:

1 It boms in a phase not "of movement"
2 He does not only move, but bombs as well, so it's not a move "action".

I guess this was probably addressed in the Clarifications, but they seem to have dissapeared from A-D-G with the new 8.xx rules series (which incorporate changes) so by now I cannot check it. Maybe I have the PDF home...

Some more insights on these intepretations?

[ACMW]

Wow! Bit surprised by this - but you may be right. Is it possible, then, to move a land unit out of country then back in again and not violate this rule? That would be a land equivalent of the air move .. or maybe, more bizarrely, starting in Finland, overrunning in Russia and nipping back to Finland before the cops can lay a hand on you!

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: ACMW

Wow! Bit surprised by this - but you may be right. Is it possible, then, to move a land unit out of country then back in again and not violate this rule? That would be a land equivalent of the air move .. or maybe, more bizarrely, starting in Finland, overrunning in Russia and nipping back to Finland before the cops can lay a hand on you!

MWIF doesn't allow a land unit to enter a hex outside of the country if it would violate FTC. Air units can fly missions but their return to base is checked against FTC.

[Orm]

FTC is a different rule than the one affecting the Finnish aircraft. I strongly suggest that MWIF is correct here. And I do recall that we have had this discussion previously.