Newb Question re: Rumania

[jboldt007]

A third the way through first GW game (awesooome!!). As Axis though made a bad blunder: here is the situation- soviets have claimed east Poland. Rumania is a full axis ally. Hungary and Yugoslavia are neutral. Bulgaria will go to Soviets. After surrender of France (no Vichy) it was tempting to head west so I delayed Barbarossa. Got to foothills of Gibraltar when Finland fell and Russians began massing on their south border. I decided to trigger a DOW only to see the soviet hordes pour into Rumania and (with some luck) take the oil fields and Bucharest. Whoops. Stabilized the front there but too little too late. Now I have to claw them back.

So in such a situation how does one best get troops into Rumania to bolster against the inevitable push there? Poland is closed as an access in this case. Hungary is neutral until the DOW. My observations having gone through some AARs (which all newbs should do - they are great):

1. Rumania can hold its own long enough in an early Barbarossa (delaying a DOW is probably bad in any event).
2. Align Yugoslavia- this means taking Athens - not lightly considered.
3. Conquer Yugoslavia- I tried this in a solitaire experiment and it did not go well.
4. Air transport as many infantry units as you can into Rumania.
5. Run the CW / French fleet gauntlet (assuming it is in force) to the Black Sea to deliver troops to Rumania's port...

(The depth of this game is rapidly becoming apparent!)

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: jboldt007

A third the way through first GW game (awesooome!!). As Axis though made a bad blunder: here is the situation- soviets have claimed east Poland. Rumania is a full axis ally. Hungary and Yugoslavia are neutral. Bulgaria will go to Soviets. After surrender of France (no Vichy) it was tempting to head west so I delayed Barbarossa. Got to foothills of Gibraltar when Finland fell and Russians began massing on their south border. I decided to trigger a DOW only to see the soviet hordes pour into Rumania and (with some luck) take the oil fields and Bucharest. Whoops. Stabilized the front there but too little too late. Now I have to claw them back.

So in such a situation how does one best get troops into Rumania to bolster against the inevitable push there? Poland is closed as an access in this case. Hungary is neutral until the DOW. My observations having gone through some AARs (which all newbs should do - they are great):

1. Rumania can hold its own long enough in an early Barbarossa (delaying a DOW is probably bad in any event).
2. Align Yugoslavia- this means taking Athens - not lightly considered.
3. Conquer Yugoslavia- I tried this in a solitaire experiment and it did not go well.
4. Air transport as many infantry units as you can into Rumania.
5. Run the CW / French fleet gauntlet (assuming it is in force) to the Black Sea to deliver troops to Rumania's port...

(The depth of this game is rapidly becoming apparent!)

The most common things are either to allow the Hungarian and Bulgarian claims, which lets you align Hungary, or to conquer Hungary yourself.

#1 is an invitation to disaster, especially if playing with oil. If nothing else, how do you stop Russian strat raids on Ploesti?

#2 is wonderful, if you can pull it off. If. Good luck.

#3: If you have aligned or conquered Hungary, conquering Yugoslavia is not so difficult.

#4: How are you going to supply these German infantry?

#5 is illegal. A neutral Turkey blocks the Bosphorus.

[jboldt007]

Thanks! For the comments! Ah right - re: Turkey.
I was going to add conquer Hungary - I see in the AARs that players do this.

The problem is aligning Hungary as one can't do this until there is a DOW between Germany and USSR. This means you have a turn to rush troops in through Hungary and get them to the front. Probably best to conquer Hungary if the Axis are worried about Rumania, assuming they aren't concerned with US's reaction.

I guess if one did bother to air transport troops in, they would become potentially supplied when Hungary becomes aligned- assuming that was the plan and that the air transport moves were legal.

[Dabrion]

Rum full ally is basically the best long term outcome [edit: for a full out Barbarossa, Hun FTRs are quite nice for a sea lion though]. Under normal circumstances should you have the time to take Yugo and establish LOCs to RUM to start there with forces even though HUN is neutral (e.g. either start the game with Yugo or task the apprentice dictator Mussolin to take care of it .. then help him finish the job after you kicked ass in France). The only downside is that you loose BUL/HUN to break the RU garrison.

Triggering the RU>RUM war when you have no way to rail in peacekeepers puts half your oil supply in jeopardy. Only do this if you are 100% sure to enforce the peace at EOT (e.g. RU will not get a hex outside of Bessarabia until EOT. The USE hit is worth it if you can control the outcome!)


p.s.: Yugo first, then France, stall Poland!

[Centuur]

If one wants Rumania as a full Axis ally, Germany can always DoW Yugoslavia in 1939 and align Hungary immediately after that DoW. That's the best way to proceed, since that gives Germany the opportunity to send units and planes into Rumania to conquer Bulgaria to prevent Uncle Joe from aligning them (and put pressure on the Rumanians)...

This means Yugoslavia first, Poland second and France third. But that should not be too difficult for Germany to do, but if bad weather comes early and stays long (short turns during winter), you might not be in position to attack France in M/A 1940...

[Dabrion]

I disagree on the order there.. Poland is more of a historic chore that has no benefit in WiF. France+CW can be a serious issue if given time and the Balkan conundrum also rewards initiative.


To elaborate, the Wehrmacht learn a shit ton of lessons in Czech and Poland, specifically regarding logistics and maintenance of the armored service. Had they not had the opportunity to test drive there, that bit would have played out in the Luxembourg/Ardennes campaign, perhaps with the outcome of rendering WW2 into WW1. These facts have no say in WiF. There is no doctrines or veterancy of units beyond the state they are produced in. That renders into Poland a pure butcher job .. with no time constraint .. unless you believe that you have to do it first because it happened first historically, there is no reason to tend to it with more force than a troll invasion.

[Centuur]

Well, I believe those two resources and the red factory in Poland are very important for Germany to get control of as early as possible. Those extra build points are very important to get early in the game...

[jboldt007]

Going after Yugoslavia early .... it seems to me there is no way the Italians can pull it off alone. As noted above Germany would need to send in units- maybe not that many- they could go on to immediate garrison duty in the east .But whatever - it seems Rumania as a full ally, especially with Oil, is essential, so by hook or by crook it needs to be protected..

[jboldt007]

On the interesting point of veterancy - of course a player has the control of grand strategy based in how the game is designed- what I like is that generally historic decisions play out in the game but there is lots of opportunity for alternate courses. As had been noted in a different thread, in hind sight there is no really good reason to try and capture Norway knowing France will usually fall- in reality the Axis did not know this. Of course France can survive in MWIF too.

At a tactical level units do tend to abstractly get more efffective- in the majority of times you can select your unit loses- you get rid of the older, less effective units and then you can scrap them. This is kind of like veterancy- the more battles, the more effective your units become which make your strategic objectives easier to obtain (assuming you don't scrap too many in a class you need!)

[Dabrion]

I didn't say don't take the resources. You do a normal surprise impulse vs. Poland, taking Gdansk and the Resources, killing the bumps, establishing ZoCs around Lodz/Warsaw.

Alignment in '39 costs 4BP for Hungary and 5BP for Rumania. Also takes away a pact resource..

IT cant do it alone, mostly because they can only take the crappy IT combined actions.

For Yugo First you can bring about this force to the Solvenian border: v.Bock, 5x INF, Inf, Eng, ART + air.


Yugo has four corps in '39, and in RAW7 they have to fear a Hungary alignment, so at least one corps is probably sitting in Belgrad. You should have ~70 factors against the corner hex, or ~30(~50) factors from one(two) hex(s) against against Zagreb if the approaches are not covered. Italian MTN threatens ZOC on Zagreb, puting the mountains oos if there is no Unit in Zagreb (I guess that is a non-argument in RAW7 where you get RES immediately?). Basically use your surprise air to pound a hole in the mountain defense.. there is no comeback for Yugo once Solvenia falls, baring FR/CW intervention.

[jboldt007]

Nice ... I guess I have a few things to learn yet. But yes it's clear- one dces not always have to conquer- taking resources and rail lines may be fine as long as you can keep the locals at bay...

[Joseignacio]

That's true... for a time. Not conquering lets the minor get (free) reinforcements, and the shores of the county do not have your notional units to defend, so the enemy can Debark (not Invade) if they want to press on you or make problems to you if you want to conquer it later, or even create a new little front for you to defend (for example in rugged Yugoslavia), plus if an allied country can send 4 corps to a country attacked by the axis (and, thus, allied to Allies) they gain a roll for the american entry per country. it uses to happen in Greece, there are many islans where you can debark without exposing your units if you don't want to fight the germans so early with CW in the land, although some times that would pay off as well, in the greek mountains, by making the German waste more BP while killing the CW units but also by inmobilizing those troops there. I have done it as well in Belgium, gaining two rolls without expending units foolishly, they made the Axis lose more points to kill them. Some times you even may evacuate them if you feel like that, like those in the Greek islands (those which are not Territories).

[jboldt007]

Good comments - thanks.

[Dabrion]

Yes, Allied intervention is a serious nuisance to the whole plan. There is no free lunch after all .. and you shall never forget that applies to both sides equally.

At first, this is not the only way you can start the war. Axis has the strategic initiative and knows allied unit placement when they setup. If you determine that they can bring four corps early and think it likely they will, and you dont want to put up with it.. then dont. But then maybe you should stick to opponents like Denmark or Ponyland..


The rational with this move is obviously to up the ante and get an item off the list that would be done in '40 traditionally. You cannot do that without opposing a flank (ref. no free lunch). That being said, this is the time where the axis dictates the flow of the game. If the Allies think they have to bring *all* of their lift into a low box of the Italian Coast .. maybe ask them which Pizza they ordered: FUTTI DI MARE aka DOW IT CW/FR?!

[jboldt007]

In rereading the above I realized the issue of the notional unit not being present In a non conquered country. Good point!

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

I didn't say don't take the resources. You do a normal surprise impulse vs. Poland, taking Gdansk and the Resources, killing the bumps, establishing ZoCs around Lodz/Warsaw.

Alignment in '39 costs 4BP for Hungary and 5BP for Rumania. Also takes away a pact resource..

IT cant do it alone, mostly because they can only take the crappy IT combined actions.

For Yugo First you can bring about this force to the Solvenian border: v.Bock, 5x INF, Inf, Eng, ART + air.


Yugo has four corps in '39, and in RAW7 they have to fear a Hungary alignment, so at least one corps is probably sitting in Belgrad. You should have ~70 factors against the corner hex, or ~30(~50) factors from one(two) hex(s) against against Zagreb if the approaches are not covered. Italian MTN threatens ZOC on Zagreb, puting the mountains oos if there is no Unit in Zagreb (I guess that is a non-argument in RAW7 where you get RES immediately?). Basically use your surprise air to pound a hole in the mountain defense.. there is no comeback for Yugo once Solvenia falls, baring FR/CW intervention.

Why are all the Yugoslavians on the border?

There are some nice mountain hexes out of range of most of the German bombers- and even some of the German infantry. If Germany sets up to do this, the Commonwealth should move heaven and earth to get 4 corps into Yugoslavia. Once landed, they should rail or walk to the frontline and help hold off the Germans. Mountain hexes are much better that all that clear terrain in Belgium and France.

But nothing is certain either way. Weather and die rolls will always have their say.

[Dabrion]

This was a RAW8 game where Hungary can only be aligned when you control one or more hexes in Yugo. In RAW7 you have to setup in and around the factories I guess.