*Spoilers*
I love the entire premise and execution of this mission. Been using my stealth aircraft to knock out ASW and AEW aircraft, clubbing the occasional hapless fighter on the way. A bit annoyed at the damage model because 6 AMRAAMs to take out a Y-8 seems excessive.
Anyway, got a question to pose to you guys. I've lucked out and managed to hit two of the escorts for the Liaoning group with Harpoons from some ROK subs. These escorts are intact, but slowed to 7-8 knots, slowing the rest of the group. The ships don't have a pier to automatically RTB to, so they are staying attached and slowing the group. Do you guys think that given the Liaoning's goal of getting to the Taiwan strait that I should use the editor to detach these wounded cripples to return North, or leave them with them? Right now it's making my next attacks a lot easier, but I don't know if that's fair.
Showpieces
Moderator: MOD_Command
RE: Showpieces
Commander Kim Sung-Ho took a heavy sigh as he checked his watch one last time. The shallow littorals of the Great Yangtze Bank made using the sonar of his Type 214 submarine the ROKS Son Won-il tricky at best. However, it was more than shallow enough to stream the floating wire which picked up periodical updates on the Liaoning task force from an American MQ-4C Triton orbiting 200 miles to his east. 12 hours earlier the drone had helped coordinate a missile strike from the Son Won-il and her sister ship, the ROKS Ryu Gwansun against the group. They didn't know that each had scored a hit against escorting Frigates (this would later be confirmed by USAF and USMC analysts studying images beamed from LRASM missiles aimed at the carrier as well as images of the Frigates from the F-35 EOTS, showing heavy damage to the ships from the impact and subsequent major fires) causing the group to slow down. Whether this was from damage or an increased respect for the submarine threat, Kim couldn't say. What he did know was that it gave him an opportunity he thought lost.
At the group's top speed of 20 knots, there was no chance for the Korean subs to catch the Carrier Strike Group. They couldn't run faster than 12 knots while using the diesels (nevermind the noise and risk of snorkel detection) and the batteries would drain too quickly even aided by AIP underwater. The Americans had a trio of Nuclear boats that could sprint to intercept the CSG, but they were far to the south. However, with the CSG slowed, the 2 Korean and 1 Japanese modern SSP subs could stand a chance of getting in position to intercept, where they would be extremely lethal in the shallow water. In fact, the Ryu Gwansun had actually stumbled right on top of a Chinese Song class submarine, getting within 3000 yards before detecting the other boat, which did not detect the Korean. A quick torpedo handled that, although Kim wouldn't find this out until later. American stealth fighters had flown deep behind enemy lines and knocked out every ASW patrol aircraft the Chinese put up. One unfortunate plane had been laying a sonobuoy line very close to the Son Won-il when a pair of F-22s flying from Iwo Jima put multiple missiles into him, saving the sub which could barely detect the buoys in the heavy seas. The sub had actually detected a J-15 crashing into the water nearby, but there was no chance they could risk detection to rescue any survivors if they had ejected. Confident with the skies clear, the sub pushed through the sonobuoy barrier without detection.
The time had come. It was 0320 in the morning on July 21st, 2018. If the reports from the drone were right, he would be within range of the strike group. The heavy seas meant he had no firm sonar contact, but that also meant the Chinese had no chance of detecting him. He raised his periscope. The first thing Kim saw was the two frigates previously damaged. No fires burned, but the superstructure of each had clearly been engulfed, and one rode low in the water as if it had sustained flooding. A single impact hole from the missiles sat square in the middle of the ship, and he could see the ruins of the sub-hunting helicopter on the stern of the closest ship. He smiled, correctly assuming his missiles had helped cause this damage, but these Frigates were not his main prize. Liaoning loomed in the heavy rain. The ship should have been blacked out, but some lights easily shown in the Low Light Television Image of his periscope where the crew was working to repair damage from the American missile. A destroyer was riding shotgun, ready to intercept the next wave of missiles that might come roaring out of the storm. All 8 tubes onboard the submarine were loaded with Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes. One each would be sent at the previously wounded Frigates. The other 6 would be aimed at Liaoning herself. The destroyer was a tempting opportunity, but his mission was clear. The crew held their breath, waiting for Kim to give the order. Taking one last sweep looking for surprises, Kim gave the order to fire all 8 tubes at a range of 8000 yards. The Chinese detected the torpedoes not long after launch, but as luck would have it, all of the ASW aircraft were located on either one of the Frigates or on the Carrier. The easternmost frigate was the first to go, the torpedo breaking her spine and finishing the damage the fire had started. The other frigate, though wounded, actually was able to escape the fish meant for it thanks to the heavy seas and the fact that the Korean sub cut their wires and ran as soon as they fired. The Carrier was not so lucky.
The Sonarmen onboard the Son Won-il reported the explosion on the bearing of one Frigate first, but didn't have to strain much over the ambient noise to listen to the 6 fish running true on the Liaoning. At 0323 Local time he let out a cheer as the first exploding torpedo turned into a constant roll as the next 5 torpedoes joined it. If the submarine hadn't been fleeing as fast as it could, they would have heard the stern of the pride of the Chinese carrier tear off. The ship sank quickly in the 102 feet of water. Many crew made for the island which still poked about halfway out of the water. Those that went into the water were less fortunate, the rough seas and dark knight making it very difficult to spot survivors. Worse still, the healthy escorts and AOE fled to Shanghai harbor to escape the submarine still prowling. Ironically, it was the wounded Type 054A Frigate PLAN Jingzhou that would pluck over 200 sailors from the water, her captain figuring that his wounded ship wouldn't be able to run anyway. Just under half of the crew would ultimately be rescued in the next couple of days. The Americans would later drop multiple 2000lb penetrating bombs on the wreck to prevent the Chinese from salvaging her. The men onboard the Son Won-il would return to Korea as heroes, a proud moment for a country devastated by the war it was just hanging in on. He would privately thank the American pilots who helped protect his sub at a later date.
Well it ended up not mattering. A lucky LRASM (the only one to get through, despite F-35 Jamming support) hit the Liaoning in the engines, slowing her to 7 knots. I kept the escort Frigates with her after that. This allowed the ROKS Son Won-il Type 214 submarine to sneak into the group, hugging the bottom and using AIP. Once it was in range, a spread of 8 torpedoes fired into the group finished off a damaged Frigate and much more importantly broke the back of Liaoning, the pride of the Chinese fleet. She sank in 102 feet of water 60 miles East of Shanghai. The attacking submarine got away clean. If that sub hadn't have gotten her, there was a Japanese boat not far away, and a trio of American nuke boats more than eager to help out. The B-1 with LRASM was awesome, I would have killed for a second one (I think the missiles would have easily overwhelmed the defenders). AIP is certainly handy when you need it, although the mission was a huge test on the SSP boats who needed to travel so far and fast to hope to intercept. Nuke boats would have been better if I hadn't slowed the group down. Stealth fighters continue to club baby seals.
Awesome scenario!!!
SIDE: China
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x A-50 Mainring [KJ-2000]
11x J-10A Vigorous Dragon
4x J-11B Flanker B [Su-27SK Copy]
18x J-15 Flying Shark [Su-33 Copy]
4x J-15S Flying Shark [Su-33 Copy]
5x Su-30MKK2 Flanker G
1x Type 001 Liaoning [16 Liaoning, Shi Lang, Ex-Varyag]
2x Type 039G1 Song
1x Type 054A Jiangkai II [530 Xuzhou]
4x Y-8Q Cub [High New 6]
6x Z-18FQ Super Frelon
3x Z-18YJ Super Frelon [Black Bat]
2x Z-9C Dauphin 2
EXPENDITURES:
------------------
5x 130mm China H/PJ-38 HE
4x 30mm China H/PJ-12 [Type 730, 240 rnds]
6x 30mm China H/PJ-14 [Type 1130, 500 rnds]
3x 30mm Gsh-30-1 Burst [30 rnds]
8x AA-12 Adder A [R-77, RVV-AE]
6x Generic Acoustic Decoy
60x Generic Active Directional Sonobuoy
8x Generic Chaff Rocket
98x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]
4x Generic Flare Rocket [Single Spectral]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [4x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
148x Generic Passive Directional Sonobuoy
2x HQ-10 [FL-3000N]
47x HQ-16A [Semi Buk Copy]
24x HQ-9B
14x PL-12
5x PL-15
3x PL-8C [Python 3]
SIDE: JTF Wahoo
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------
EXPENDITURES:
------------------
10x A.184 Black Shark
16x ADM-141C ITALD [Active RF]
24x AGM-158C LRASM
24x AIM-120C-7 AMRAAM P3I.3
102x AIM-120D AMRAAM P3I.4
4x AIM-9M Sidewinder
2x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
77x J/HQS-12 DIFAR
83x J/HQS-33B DICASS [AN/SSQ-62]
1x Mk46 NEARTIP Mod 5
8x UGM-84D Harpoon IC
At the group's top speed of 20 knots, there was no chance for the Korean subs to catch the Carrier Strike Group. They couldn't run faster than 12 knots while using the diesels (nevermind the noise and risk of snorkel detection) and the batteries would drain too quickly even aided by AIP underwater. The Americans had a trio of Nuclear boats that could sprint to intercept the CSG, but they were far to the south. However, with the CSG slowed, the 2 Korean and 1 Japanese modern SSP subs could stand a chance of getting in position to intercept, where they would be extremely lethal in the shallow water. In fact, the Ryu Gwansun had actually stumbled right on top of a Chinese Song class submarine, getting within 3000 yards before detecting the other boat, which did not detect the Korean. A quick torpedo handled that, although Kim wouldn't find this out until later. American stealth fighters had flown deep behind enemy lines and knocked out every ASW patrol aircraft the Chinese put up. One unfortunate plane had been laying a sonobuoy line very close to the Son Won-il when a pair of F-22s flying from Iwo Jima put multiple missiles into him, saving the sub which could barely detect the buoys in the heavy seas. The sub had actually detected a J-15 crashing into the water nearby, but there was no chance they could risk detection to rescue any survivors if they had ejected. Confident with the skies clear, the sub pushed through the sonobuoy barrier without detection.
The time had come. It was 0320 in the morning on July 21st, 2018. If the reports from the drone were right, he would be within range of the strike group. The heavy seas meant he had no firm sonar contact, but that also meant the Chinese had no chance of detecting him. He raised his periscope. The first thing Kim saw was the two frigates previously damaged. No fires burned, but the superstructure of each had clearly been engulfed, and one rode low in the water as if it had sustained flooding. A single impact hole from the missiles sat square in the middle of the ship, and he could see the ruins of the sub-hunting helicopter on the stern of the closest ship. He smiled, correctly assuming his missiles had helped cause this damage, but these Frigates were not his main prize. Liaoning loomed in the heavy rain. The ship should have been blacked out, but some lights easily shown in the Low Light Television Image of his periscope where the crew was working to repair damage from the American missile. A destroyer was riding shotgun, ready to intercept the next wave of missiles that might come roaring out of the storm. All 8 tubes onboard the submarine were loaded with Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes. One each would be sent at the previously wounded Frigates. The other 6 would be aimed at Liaoning herself. The destroyer was a tempting opportunity, but his mission was clear. The crew held their breath, waiting for Kim to give the order. Taking one last sweep looking for surprises, Kim gave the order to fire all 8 tubes at a range of 8000 yards. The Chinese detected the torpedoes not long after launch, but as luck would have it, all of the ASW aircraft were located on either one of the Frigates or on the Carrier. The easternmost frigate was the first to go, the torpedo breaking her spine and finishing the damage the fire had started. The other frigate, though wounded, actually was able to escape the fish meant for it thanks to the heavy seas and the fact that the Korean sub cut their wires and ran as soon as they fired. The Carrier was not so lucky.
The Sonarmen onboard the Son Won-il reported the explosion on the bearing of one Frigate first, but didn't have to strain much over the ambient noise to listen to the 6 fish running true on the Liaoning. At 0323 Local time he let out a cheer as the first exploding torpedo turned into a constant roll as the next 5 torpedoes joined it. If the submarine hadn't been fleeing as fast as it could, they would have heard the stern of the pride of the Chinese carrier tear off. The ship sank quickly in the 102 feet of water. Many crew made for the island which still poked about halfway out of the water. Those that went into the water were less fortunate, the rough seas and dark knight making it very difficult to spot survivors. Worse still, the healthy escorts and AOE fled to Shanghai harbor to escape the submarine still prowling. Ironically, it was the wounded Type 054A Frigate PLAN Jingzhou that would pluck over 200 sailors from the water, her captain figuring that his wounded ship wouldn't be able to run anyway. Just under half of the crew would ultimately be rescued in the next couple of days. The Americans would later drop multiple 2000lb penetrating bombs on the wreck to prevent the Chinese from salvaging her. The men onboard the Son Won-il would return to Korea as heroes, a proud moment for a country devastated by the war it was just hanging in on. He would privately thank the American pilots who helped protect his sub at a later date.
Well it ended up not mattering. A lucky LRASM (the only one to get through, despite F-35 Jamming support) hit the Liaoning in the engines, slowing her to 7 knots. I kept the escort Frigates with her after that. This allowed the ROKS Son Won-il Type 214 submarine to sneak into the group, hugging the bottom and using AIP. Once it was in range, a spread of 8 torpedoes fired into the group finished off a damaged Frigate and much more importantly broke the back of Liaoning, the pride of the Chinese fleet. She sank in 102 feet of water 60 miles East of Shanghai. The attacking submarine got away clean. If that sub hadn't have gotten her, there was a Japanese boat not far away, and a trio of American nuke boats more than eager to help out. The B-1 with LRASM was awesome, I would have killed for a second one (I think the missiles would have easily overwhelmed the defenders). AIP is certainly handy when you need it, although the mission was a huge test on the SSP boats who needed to travel so far and fast to hope to intercept. Nuke boats would have been better if I hadn't slowed the group down. Stealth fighters continue to club baby seals.
Awesome scenario!!!
SIDE: China
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x A-50 Mainring [KJ-2000]
11x J-10A Vigorous Dragon
4x J-11B Flanker B [Su-27SK Copy]
18x J-15 Flying Shark [Su-33 Copy]
4x J-15S Flying Shark [Su-33 Copy]
5x Su-30MKK2 Flanker G
1x Type 001 Liaoning [16 Liaoning, Shi Lang, Ex-Varyag]
2x Type 039G1 Song
1x Type 054A Jiangkai II [530 Xuzhou]
4x Y-8Q Cub [High New 6]
6x Z-18FQ Super Frelon
3x Z-18YJ Super Frelon [Black Bat]
2x Z-9C Dauphin 2
EXPENDITURES:
------------------
5x 130mm China H/PJ-38 HE
4x 30mm China H/PJ-12 [Type 730, 240 rnds]
6x 30mm China H/PJ-14 [Type 1130, 500 rnds]
3x 30mm Gsh-30-1 Burst [30 rnds]
8x AA-12 Adder A [R-77, RVV-AE]
6x Generic Acoustic Decoy
60x Generic Active Directional Sonobuoy
8x Generic Chaff Rocket
98x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]
4x Generic Flare Rocket [Single Spectral]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [4x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
148x Generic Passive Directional Sonobuoy
2x HQ-10 [FL-3000N]
47x HQ-16A [Semi Buk Copy]
24x HQ-9B
14x PL-12
5x PL-15
3x PL-8C [Python 3]
SIDE: JTF Wahoo
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------
EXPENDITURES:
------------------
10x A.184 Black Shark
16x ADM-141C ITALD [Active RF]
24x AGM-158C LRASM
24x AIM-120C-7 AMRAAM P3I.3
102x AIM-120D AMRAAM P3I.4
4x AIM-9M Sidewinder
2x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
77x J/HQS-12 DIFAR
83x J/HQS-33B DICASS [AN/SSQ-62]
1x Mk46 NEARTIP Mod 5
8x UGM-84D Harpoon IC
-
giantsquid
- Posts: 289
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:01 pm
- Location: Milan, Italy
RE: Showpieces
I'm going t play this one too. Tailhook, your AAR is so nice! And the scenario design/storyboard in Chains of war is excellent. Really a nice DLC, congratulations
RE: Showpieces
This scenario is actually very discouraging, if it is an accurate reflection of how F-35s or F-22s armed with AMRAAMs would fare against a peer competitor. It takes >5 AMRAAMs to knock out a single Flanker or Flying Shark whereas most often than not they can take out an F-35 with the first shot. A duo of F-35s thus expend their entire bank of missiles against a enemy duo and in all likelihood, that still doesn't do the trick. That's quite disheartening.
RE: Showpieces
Try not shooting at the greatest range and see if your results are different.
You can adjust your WRA's to minimize the number of outs a target has including the firing range.
http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=3598
Thanks!
Mike
You can adjust your WRA's to minimize the number of outs a target has including the firing range.
http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=3598
Thanks!
Mike
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giantsquid
- Posts: 289
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:01 pm
- Location: Milan, Italy
RE: Showpieces
Yes, you can shoot closer with Amraam (35 nm) to raise PK or switch off damage model. The scenario is very well designed and challenging.
Anyway I noticed the same: F35 or F22 always go down with one hit, while the enemy planes most of the time only get limited damage, helicopters included. In other scenarios Chains of War, like God of War, enemy planes look more vulnerable to damage. Did anyone else notice this?
Francesco
Anyway I noticed the same: F35 or F22 always go down with one hit, while the enemy planes most of the time only get limited damage, helicopters included. In other scenarios Chains of War, like God of War, enemy planes look more vulnerable to damage. Did anyone else notice this?
Francesco
RE: Showpieces
Aircraft do have different damage points in this game as well as armor etc. Missile have different warhead sides and effects so variation does make sense.
If you do think something seems wrong please do put together a post with example and your rationale.
Thanks!
Mike
If you do think something seems wrong please do put together a post with example and your rationale.
Thanks!
Mike
RE: Showpieces
I always have my fighters set to "hold" and I manually fire--usually at around 75% of max range but for this scenario I've been going for 50%. Against Flying Sharks the hit rate is still less than 50% and I am immediately answered by a volley from them which will almost be guaranteed to wipe out my guys. The only strategy I've found to take out these Flying Sharks is to completely overwhelm them with numbers. This makes for very slow going because it takes almost my entire inventory of F-35s to safely take out a couple J-15s, but I guess I'll see how the "three days" plays out. I guess maybe the strategy is supposed to be to sneak past them and take out the ASW "behind enemy lines", which is apparently how Tailhook did it, but I when I try this my guys are immediately converged upon as soon as they fire and are wiped out quite handily, despite tight emissions. So instead I'm slowing chipping away at the AAW patrols but I'm pretty sure I'll run out of AMRAAMs before they run out of fighters. All I know is: based on this simulation, I would take a Flying Shark with its load-out over a F-35 with its load-out any day of the week.ORIGINAL: mikmyk
Try not shooting at the greatest range and see if your results are different.
You can adjust your WRA's to minimize the number of outs a target has including the firing range.
http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=3598
Thanks!
Mike
RE: Showpieces
I have definitely noticed this. I don't think I've ever taken out a Flying Shark with a single hit and they usually seem highly operational and require at least two or three impacts, whereas the converse is true for the American planes. Like I said: IF this is an accurate depiction of what state-of-the-art U.S. vs Chinese air combat looks like, then we need to be very, very worried.ORIGINAL: giantsquid
Yes, you can shoot closer with Amraam (35 nm) to raise PK or switch off damage model. The scenario is very well designed and challenging.
Anyway I noticed the same: F35 or F22 always go down with one hit, while the enemy planes most of the time only get limited damage, helicopters included. In other scenarios Chains of War, like God of War, enemy planes look more vulnerable to damage. Did anyone else notice this?
Francesco
RE: Showpieces
Thanks
I'll run some tests and see what we come across. We haven't really had too many complaints but sounds like its worth a look.
Mike
I'll run some tests and see what we come across. We haven't really had too many complaints but sounds like its worth a look.
Mike
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AceOfSpadeszzzzzz
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:06 am
RE: Showpieces
I don't think for now this damage mode system is working in a way it should be, A single hit might not destroy an aircraft, but I think for most cases it is enough to make the plane uncontrollable and the aircraft will end up crashing into the ground.
RE: Showpieces
ORIGINAL: AceOfSpadeszzzzzz
I don't think for now this damage mode system is working in a way it should be, A single hit might not destroy an aircraft, but I think for most cases it is enough to make the plane uncontrollable and the aircraft will end up crashing into the ground.
Depends on the missile and aircraft. Plenty of planes that got hit by Stingers, Sidewinders etc. made it home. Even heavier stuff like HAWKs and AMRAAMs are not a sure thing.
RE: Showpieces
ORIGINAL: blkholsun
I have definitely noticed this. I don't think I've ever taken out a Flying Shark with a single hit and they usually seem highly operational and require at least two or three impacts, whereas the converse is true for the American planes. Like I said: IF this is an accurate depiction of what state-of-the-art U.S. vs Chinese air combat looks like, then we need to be very, very worried.ORIGINAL: giantsquid
Yes, you can shoot closer with Amraam (35 nm) to raise PK or switch off damage model. The scenario is very well designed and challenging.
Anyway I noticed the same: F35 or F22 always go down with one hit, while the enemy planes most of the time only get limited damage, helicopters included. In other scenarios Chains of War, like God of War, enemy planes look more vulnerable to damage. Did anyone else notice this?
Francesco
There are two aspects to this:
1) A straight up "our fighters vs their fighters" pitched battle is usually the last thing you want to do. Attack their weaknesses, not their strong points. Usually you have more than one tool at your disposal.
2) Yes, modern Flanker variants are pretty powerful aircraft with plenty of options for pre- and post-impact survivability. Now you know (part of) why the US military and industry is already discussing next-gen fighters, weapons and systems.
-
AceOfSpadeszzzzzz
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:06 am
RE: Showpieces
Yes, that's true. But I think missles like AMRAAM is much less powerful than it should be. I often need more than two hits to kill a flanker, I even saw a KJ-2000 survived 4 hits.
RE: Showpieces
We already had a discussion on the whole "big planes need lots of AMRAAMs" subject so this is kind of a duplicate.
RE: Showpieces
Yeah, I have no insight whatsoever into how powerful an AMRAAM "should" or "shouldn't" be, and I'm perfectly willing to accept that an enemy aircraft probably isn't going to 100% disintegrate upon a successful hit, but I do think that there should be more modeling of operational impact. Usually these J-15s are still cruising around like nothing even happened to them after an impact and go on to drop my planes in the sea if I don't flee from them with afterburners on. And if I dump 4 or 5 AMRAAMs into a Y-8, I certainly would be surprised if at a very minimum it doesn't limp off to base rather than happily continue bopping around doing its mission. That aspect I think seems a little odd. But admittedly, I have no real idea.ORIGINAL: AceOfSpadeszzzzzz
Yes, that's true. But I think missles like AMRAAM is much less powerful than it should be. I often need more than two hits to kill a flanker, I even saw a KJ-2000 survived 4 hits.
RE: Showpieces
If the snags of the comprehensive AC damage model are an experience-killer for you, you can turn it off (Editor --> Scenario Features --> Aircraft Damage). Insta-kill AMRAAMs will be back.
-
AceOfSpadeszzzzzz
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:06 am
RE: Showpieces
Sry for that. I did realized that AMRAAM has a much less powerful warhead than missiles like R-27 when I was playing fly simulators like DCS. But I can still kill a enemy fighter with one hit in most cases. So I'm wondering is it really that powerless in real life.
RE: Showpieces
Just to make sure: We are talking about survivability after impact, right? Not evasion ?