More Questions for the experts

[Gewehr1943]

What's the best altitude for search planes performing ASW and Naval search missions?

also -

What's the best altitude for ground bombardment and for torpedo attacks?

[Grfin Zeppelin]

I dare to say there is no best altitude, it depends.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: Gewehr1943

What's the best altitude for search planes performing ASW and Naval search missions?

also -

What's the best altitude for ground bombardment and for torpedo attacks?

There are oh so many variables and tactics to employ. If there is no flak in the hex, lower is always better for bombing (at least down to 2k). If CAP is flying very high, one low raid may sneak in under the CAP. After the first raid, the CAP will start down and probably intercept. On the other hand, if you bring your bombers in over the CAP and they do not have advanced warning from radar, the CAP may not have time to climb to meet the bombers.

For torpedo attacks, planes can make torpedo runs from many altitudes. It depends on CAP settings. Sometimes it is best to come in very low (such as at 2K) and try to avoid the CAP. Other times it is better to come in a little higher, so that you can coordinate with dive bombers and escorts and possibly have your escorts come in above the enemy CAP. Sometimes, it is a good idea to mix altitudes: with escorts and dive bombers coming in high and torpedo bombers skimming the waves. Depends.

As to naval search: 6K seems to be optimum. As to ASW, I have the most success at 1K with good LowN skill.

[MakeeLearn]

You need to be 6000 or lower to see subs.!?


» Low: 0-10k’
» Medium: 10-15k’
» Med Hi: 16-20k’
» High: 21-30k’
» Very Hi: 31k’-up

tm.asp?m=2260137

"7.1 ASW:

Until your pilots get to the 70+ exp, you won't attack consistently.

tm.asp?m=2260787

To kill subs near your ports:

ASW Mission
100 feet (or 1000 if the plane will not go to 100)
Max Range
Use bombs not torps, if that is an option.

To see subs as far out as possible:

Naval Search Mission
6000 feet
Max Range
Use Bombs not torps, if that is an option.

Naval search...
High altitude will spot large TF's.
Lower altitudes spot smaller TF's."

[LeeChard]

Does flying at 100ft incur any attrition penalty's?
Flying at that altitude for extended periods would take toll on the pilot you would think IRL.
Hitting the water would probably be hard on the airframe too [:D]

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: Ranger5355

Does flying at 100ft incur any attrition penalty's?
Flying at that altitude for extended periods would take toll on the pilot you would think IRL.
Hitting the water would probably be hard on the airframe too [:D]

Flying at 100ft and say training at ground attack will improve both Strafing and Defensive skills. When attacking at that altitude flak is a bigger problem as AA MG's, rifles and rocks[:D] can bring down or damage an aircraft....GP

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: Ranger5355

Does flying at 100ft incur any attrition penalty's?
Flying at that altitude for extended periods would take toll on the pilot you would think IRL.
Hitting the water would probably be hard on the airframe too [:D]

Guess you mean on ASW ? One would think that at 100 some more attrition occur. Not sure if it is in the game so, I never used that alt for asw. I use from 1000 - 3000 mostly sometimes 4k. The Allies get already in 4 or 5 / 42 an air radar update for their subs which seems to have a bigger impact as attacks on subs are less after that update (I assume it has to do with this). The radar device in question is a bit overrated tho. As the better version in real live appeared somewhere in 43 or so. Means the Allied subs get early radar warning from aircraft and can dive in time (so much fewer attacks by IJ planes). However as stated above if you have 70+ exp and asw skill helps to negate the effect a bit..

Aurorus "I have the most success at 1K with good LowN skill." I believe it was confirmed that lowN does not count for ASW only ASW skill.

[pontiouspilot]

I fly Cats at 10-12K. I find decent spotting and much better losses than trying them lower. I fly Liberators/B-17s on search at 10-15K, for same reason. I fly Kingfishers at 5-10K on search, but at 3-4k on ASW. I haven't seen much difference at ASW effectiveness 1-5K but this may be function of lack of ASW experience thus far. Frankly my air ASW is more about spotting them than sinking them, at least in '42.

I rarely fly searches at night and I probably should....what altitude for night search?? My gut hunch would be low??

[Lokasenna]

Flying at 100 feet results in higher fatigue, I think. Same thing with higher altitudes and extended ranges. This then results in lower morale.

Makee - you can see subs from any altitude. I think in general, the higher you are = the better chance to spot a TF; the lower you are = the better the DL hit that you actually get. Allegedly. I'm not sure it makes much difference.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Flying at 100 feet results in higher fatigue, I think. Same thing with higher altitudes and extended ranges. This then results in lower morale.

Makee - you can see subs from any altitude. I think in general, the higher you are = the better chance to spot a TF; the lower you are = the better the DL hit that you actually get. Allegedly. I'm not sure it makes much difference.

My observations do not agree with the altitude thing. I find much better sub detection if I am searching at 4000 feet or below. It also picks up small single ships like xAKLs better than the standard 6000 feet recommended by game designers. In their explanation of the 6000 foot recommendation they stated it was the best compromise between seeing distance (to the horizon) and visibility (being able to see objects.

When general weather in the area is predicted to be bad, I search lower to try stay under the clouds and be able to spot things through light rain. Not sure if the model takes this search setting into account but it does seem to hide stuff in weather.

[Lawless1]

Not am expert, this is what has worked for me playing AI, especially against all the subs hanging around PH

All bombers save the Havoc A-20 are sent to NAVSRCH
at either 1k or 2k, range 4/5. Get multiple indication of sub activity.
Even get a few reports of bombers attacking, with reports of hits. Mostly FOG on the hits, but in at least two games a sub was sunk.

A-20 sent to ASW at max range, 1-2k altitude.

CAT's split between NAVSRCH/ASW Range between 4-6, depending on search arc (if used), and where KB is located.
Altitude 1k for night missions, and 1-3k for day missions.

Sometimes use B17E at high altitude with search arch in the direction of where I think KB is heading

FP (mostly from damaged ships) is a mix of NAVSRCH/ASW Range 1-4, altitude 100 feet to 2k. 100 feet is only use for 1 or 2 turns than ac stood down.
100 feet is usually used on 8/9 Dec. FP split between Day/Night ops.

Have played a few turns as H2H for the first two weeks of the war, and have seen DL on the IJN subs

As stated above the intent is to increase the DL of the subs, thus reducing their chance of a successful attack

[Big B]

Whatever the stock mission profile is - is probably the best
Search about 6000 as I recall, ASW - maybe 4 or 5000.

There is a solid game engine reason for those stock mission profiles.
Yeah, you can have losses, but As I Recall - those profiles work best.

[pontiouspilot]

6000' is default setting/stock. I have trouble with the notion that this is optimum for both ASW and search??

[HansBolter]

They likely chose 6k as the default because that is the best compromise for both search and bombing for level bombers.

Below 6k level bombers incur a penalty of reduced (extended range) bomb load.

Going down to 2k-5k will increase your bombing accuracy, regardless of impact on search efficiency, but also reduce the impact of effect.

Using attack bombers for ASW eliminates the low level bombing penalty.

Personally, I prefer to operate ASW at 1k if the planes are float planes or attack bombers and 2k-4k for level bombers,trading better accuracy for reduced effect and hopefully avoiding higher fatigue and ops losses from operating them at 1k.

[Lowpe]

ASW is much better than NavS at finding subs.

You get roughly twice as many sub attacks when flying above 1000 feet on ASW.

ASW and NavS...for where it counts you want to search during the day twice for each squadron. You want to have multiple squadrons searching the same space preferably from multiple bases.

Endurance of the airframe might matter.

Never count on float planes, especially off ships, if you can help it.

Quantity of search squadrons overcomes a lot of weakness in plane, or pilot quality.

Radar is very important.

Naval Search, even when restricted to a 10 degree arc, will search 3 hexes 360 degrees pretty well. The fourth hex is rumored, but I was never very good at detecting anything at that range.

Search past 12 hexes starts to get really iffy.

Night naval search is very important.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Never count on float planes, especially off ships, if you can help it.

ASW is what Allied cruiser escorts for carriers float planes were made for.

They have too short of a range to be any good for complementing the carrier TF Nav search.

Sure they don't fly when the weather is bad, but they wouldn't be performing any other mission on those days either.

They are also my standard "close into major port" aerial ASW assets.

Unlike many other players I don't use the plethora of float plane squadrons to train fighter pilots.

I use them for ASW and get lots and lots of hits on pesky subs skulking around my major ports once ASW skill rises above 65.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Never count on float planes, especially off ships, if you can help it.

ASW is what Allied cruiser escorts for carriers float planes were made for.

They have too short of a range to be any good for complementing the carrier TF Nav search.

Night naval search...4 or 5 hex range...perfect for reactions.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

They likely chose 6k as the default because that is the best compromise for both search and bombing for level bombers.

Below 6k level bombers incur a penalty of reduced (extended range) bomb load.

Going down to 2k-5k will increase your bombing accuracy, regardless of impact on search efficiency, but also reduce the impact of effect.

Using attack bombers for ASW eliminates the low level bombing penalty.

Personally, I prefer to operate ASW at 1k if the planes are float planes or attack bombers and 2k-4k for level bombers,trading better accuracy for reduced effect and hopefully avoiding higher fatigue and ops losses from operating them at 1k.

No, it is below 2K that the penalty to bomb load applies (unless it's an attack bomber).

ASW planes always carry only reduced load - attack bomber or not.



For the rest of the thread since my last post, however, I tend to use ASW as low as I can get away with in terms of pilot fatigue/morale as I am relying on other search methods to spot the submarines.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Never count on float planes, especially off ships, if you can help it.

ASW is what Allied cruiser escorts for carriers float planes were made for.

They have too short of a range to be any good for complementing the carrier TF Nav search.

Sure they don't fly when the weather is bad, but they wouldn't be performing any other mission on those days either.

They are also my standard "close into major port" aerial ASW assets.

Unlike many other players I don't use the plethora of float plane squadrons to train fighter pilots.

I use them for ASW and get lots and lots of hits on pesky subs skulking around my major ports once ASW skill rises above 65.

I tend to stick my float planes to night Recon (for bombardment) and forget about them. There aren't enough planes to search anything reliably.

[Timotheus]

Not an expert. Will reply anyway [:D]

"What's the best altitude for search planes performing ASW and Naval search missions?"
Broski, those are two very, very different things.
ASW I go 1000 feet. I think go 100 feet to get a much better attack, but it gets a worse detect, and name of the game in subwar (tm) is to keep them down and ineffective, not to kill them.

Naval search varies (that dreaded word).
Land based sqadrons go 10000-15000 feet when looking for single ships/very small task forces AND I make sure they do not overfly enemy bases (by setting range 1 hex less than enemy range and/or setting search arc that doesn't touch it). At that height they should spot even single ships but there is a very real danger of them getting shot down by enemy fighters on CAP.


When searching for bigger fleets and carrier fleets, I usually go 20000 feet.


"What's the best altitude for ground bombardment and for torpedo attacks? "

Torpedo attack height does not matter as the game is coded that torpedo planes WILL descend to proper height anyway.
Two schools of thought in my single brain (... am weird). Get them at same height as your divebombers (10000 feet) so they will be in same raids and get same escort. Setting different heights for your TB, DB and fighters results in VERY bad fighter escort and horrible raid coordination.

Or get them at 1000 feet (while dive bombers stay at 10000 feet - you DO know DB have to be at 10000 to 13000 feet to dive bomb, right?) so that enemy fighters either go for your low TB or go higher to fight your DB. This worked superbly at Midway, as the DB found themselves alone over the Japanese CV's with ZERO ZEROs (ahahahahha) at their height.... although the views of the TB crews are impossible to ascertain, as they were ALL shot down and died.

Ground bombing - Depends on AAA level. Lemme give you some pointers.
Goal of bombing from air and bombardment is to make the enemy use their supply. Preferably more than you are. Best case scenario is to cut supply to an enemy land unit(s) by cutting all roads leading to them with other army units, and then bomb/artillery bombard them.

Once your artillery/bombers start to KILL (i.e. destroy) enemy soldiers, attack with your land force which will take minimal casualties. Welcome to the CIB theatre as Japan [:D]

Now, height - 5000 height is super effective versus land units and WILL hit. All kinds of AAA WILL hit you back though. Yes, there are different AAA unit types, from machine guns (very low level height) to medium AAA to big boy AAA (can reach and touch a bomber at very high altitude).

I have a house rule (even though I play solo versus AI) that 4 engine airplanes can only bomb from 10000 feet and no lower; at that altitude accuracy suffers but a lot of Japanese AAA is ineffective.

At 20000 feet I bomb to NOT hit enemy land units but only to make the AAA fire and use up their supplies.


Hopefully yer getting it into yer head that this game is ALL ABOUT SUPPLY.


For land bombers going after ships at sea - 100 feet. Any 1 engine or 2 engine attackers (A26 Havok, etc, look up the list, I also use B25 Mitchels that way cuz why not) go at 100 feet. They take FEWER bombs (less bomb load) BUT hit with those bombs like a madafaka and also STRAFE with their machine guns. I found that even bombing ships at sea at 1000 feet with land bombers is USELESS.

Going after warships at 100 feet is a bit suicidal though - but going after transports is awesome.