Stealth A/C vs Radar --- Sandbox

[KungPao]

I made a scenario to test old Soviet and new Russian air defense system's ability to detect B2. I have attached the scenario below, the Zip file does also contain a message log and an excel file
There are 14 SAM Bn deployed on the map (in Russia), old Soviet obsolete systems are on the left, new Russian AD are on the right. Each one has a B-2 fly overhead.
Guess who detected the B-2 first? S-200! Surprise, isn't it?

18:37:16 - 18:37:16 - New contact! Designated BOGEY #23 - Detected by SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 5x Bn) [Sensors: Tall King C [P-14, 5N84A Oborona]] at 175deg - Estimated 52nm

18:39:03 - 18:39:03 - New contact! Designated BOGEY #24 - Detected by SAM Bn (SA-21a/b Growler [S-400 Triumph]) [Sensors: Cheese Board [96L6]] at 184deg - 20.1nm

See the difference between the champion and the 2nd place winner.

I have run the test 5 times, and record the detection range in an excel file.
Here is the average detection range

SAM Bn SA-2f SA-3c SA-4 SA-5c SA-6b SA-8b SA-10b SA-11 SA-12 SA-15a SA-17 SA-20a SA-21a/b SA-23
Detection Range (nm) 14.4 N/A 4.1 50.4 N/A N/A 7.6 N/A 9.5 N/A 1.7 8.52 20.02 9.3



Conclusion : Never underestimate the SA-2 and SA-5, these two's Radar work at VHF band, they are high priority threats to your stealth A/C

[Dimitris]

The difference is that the S-200 (SA-5) battery has an included early-warning radar (P-14), whereas the S-400 (SA-21) battery does not (96L6 is a battery-level acquisition/tracking radar, not an EW set). If you add a suitable modern EW/GCI radar to the latter (e.g. Big Bird D), it should be able to achieve a respectable detection range.

[DWReese]

It's interesting that you are doing this. I, too, am running test runs using a B-2 on a simulated bombing run. I even included a few runs using a Growler, jamming away, during the run. I set a limited number of SAMs, but I included a wide array of radar units (Wall Rust, Spoon Rest D, Flat Face B, Bar Lock A, and the Tall King (P-14).

As Dimitris indicated, the very first radar (jammed or not) to pick up the B-2 was the Tall King, the P-14 radar. While it could pick it up, it was difficult getting an exact altitude fix for it, therefore none of the SAMs could fire at the B-2, despite the fact that it was well within range.

So, the P-14 was my winner, as far as radar units were concerned.

Doug

[DWReese]

Dimitris,

As I noted in my last post, that P-14 can locate the B-2 long before the other radars ever can. This confirms the same thing that you were saying.

Here's a question.....In my test, the TV cameras used by the SA-2 and the SA-3 in my scenario were able to identify the Bogey as a B-2 bomber, but no altitude details were ever provided. The B-2 probably got within 7 miles each of the SA-3 and the SA-2. As I stated, both could see (and identify) the B-2 via their TV camera.

I don't know anything about SAMs, or shooting planes out of the sky, but it seems to me that if the TV camera on these two SAM systems can "see" the plane, wouldn't that be enough to provide the altitude information so that they could fire at it?

I'm just passing this along. If that isn't how it works in real life, then that's okay, too. It just seemed odd to me.

Doug

[KungPao]

ORIGINAL: DWReese

It's interesting that you are doing this. I, too, am running test runs using a B-2 on a simulated bombing run. I even included a few runs using a Growler, jamming away, during the run. I set a limited number of SAMs, but I included a wide array of radar units (Wall Rust, Spoon Rest D, Flat Face B, Bar Lock A, and the Tall King (P-14).

As Dimitris indicated, the very first radar (jammed or not) to pick up the B-2 was the Tall King, the P-14 radar. While it could pick it up, it was difficult getting an exact altitude fix for it, therefore none of the SAMs could fire at the B-2, despite the fact that it was well within range.

So, the P-14 was my winner, as far as radar units were concerned.

Doug

Hi Doug
That's going to be my next step, testing the EW radar. Good to know you have already done a similar test. P-14 should be the a big threat as it is a high power radar working at VHF/ "A" band plus it's huge size and ugly looking. I don't know if the OTH radar (Over-the-horizon radar) will be able to detect B-2 at a longer range. it has higher power output but I don't know if CMANO simulate radar return from undesirable sources (like cloud or rain). I will do some test in the future

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Dimitris,

As I noted in my last post, that P-14 can locate the B-2 long before the other radars ever can. This confirms the same thing that you were saying.

Here's a question.....In my test, the TV cameras used by the SA-2 and the SA-3 in my scenario were able to identify the Bogey as a B-2 bomber, but no altitude details were ever provided. The B-2 probably got within 7 miles each of the SA-3 and the SA-2. As I stated, both could see (and identify) the B-2 via their TV camera.

I don't know anything about SAMs, or shooting planes out of the sky, but it seems to me that if the TV camera on these two SAM systems can "see" the plane, wouldn't that be enough to provide the altitude information so that they could fire at it?

I'm just passing this along. If that isn't how it works in real life, then that's okay, too. It just seemed odd to me.

Doug

you can press Shift+F1 bringing up the weapon allocation dialog. If a weapon cannot be fire at this moment, it tells you what is the reason.
Besides the "out of range/in the minimum range/out of DLZ" , "weapon is unable to engage imprecise target" is another common problem .But in your test the B-2 has already been tracked via TV camera, I guess this is the reason. See attached pic, this is SA-10b, it says "No directors are able to illuminate this target". This is s very common problem for SARH missles

[Cik]

common vs. stealth aircraft anyway- i don't think i've ever seen it against a conventional fighter.

[DWReese]

I followed my testing up with a few more wrinkles. I noticed that my attack was occurring a dawn, which helped the TV cameras. I slid the time back two hours and the TV cameras were no longer effective at seeing the B-2.

Additionally, I tried the B-2 with, and without, the Growler present. The Growler definitely inhibits the OpFor from being able to detect the B-2 for a much longer time period, but when it did, it still wasn't in range of any of the SAM units, so I concluded that even though it was helpful, the Growler didn't really do too much to actually help the B-2 on its mission since it was discovered anyway.

What helped the B-2, as you saw, was the fact that nothing seems to be able to lock onto it. The SA-3, with a range of 10 miles, wasn't able to get a solid look at it until it was about 3 miles out. Then it could start shooting. At 3 miles out, it was still deadly, but if you could stay away from that range, then you were good.

I figure that driving the B-2 means that it will have to be micromanaged to stay as far away from SAMs as possible, and to watch the altitude. The B-2 can fly under the shooting range of some.

If you can manage to hit the SAMs in the immediate vicinity of the target with ordinance from other platforms prior to the B-2's arrival, and along the forced path that the B-2 must travel to get to the target, then there is nothing to hurt the B-2 at all. But, flying the B-2 into the combat zone with no regard to the actual operational range of the SAMs will result in destruction.

Doug

[KungPao]

Hi Cik
Here is an example, a mini scenario of 2 Su-30 vs 2 J-10. J-10s are 50nm away in the range of R-27RE1, but they are not be able to fire because insufficient reflection.

[wild_Willie2]

One of the problems of the B2 is that it indeed has to get close to a target in order to engage it and even then, a 10-12 miles standoff range, combined with a huge turning circle will more often than not get you into detection range of most SAM systems and get you killed...

The addition of standoff JASSM weapons to the B2, is a godsend game wise....

W.