German Armor Pain in the Butt

Malkuth · Post by **Malkuth** » Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:12 am

I know in history, in the later years of war, German Armor was the best on the planet. But my god, I just got done with a game, and had 4 Shermans, 2 Wolverine TK, agaist 3 StugIII. One of my Wolves got 1 Stug. And crippled a second but the other Stug my shermans and Wolves were shooting it out with it for like 5 turns. It must of took 10 hits no damage. It finally retreated back. But when I moved my Wolves to take a Victory Hex found out it just moved back 2 hexes, and also the crew of an abandoned Stug got back in and helped destroy my two wolves. Another 4 or 5 turns and the stugs were finished. But what a fight. Any real easy way of defeating German Armor? This one stug held up my armor for the whole game, had to take other victory hexes with Troops.

Latka · Post by **Latka** » Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:20 am

Wow...whenever I'm playing as the Germans, I find my Stug IIIs go up like tinderboxes when they get hit.

I've started moving my infantry along with my tanks now. (err, tanks at the speed of infantry) They gleefully toss their grenades and satchel charges at any armor that comes nearby. That or Bazooka teams. Or ... 8in howitzer fire

-Andy

JNL · Post by **JNL** » Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:35 am

When playing US Army - if at all possible - I never go head to head with any German AFV. Just too dangerous. Even a late model M4 with decent F/C, vet crew, reasonable Armour (for an M4) is asking for trouble. The 75/L48 (even L40) can toast any US AFV (exception: Jumbo and Pershing). I won't even mention the 75/L70, the 88/L56, and L71. German AT weaponry is just too good at making holes in tanks. SPWaW does a good job of forcing you to use combined arms tactics to crack a position. 99% of my playing time has been with US Army so I can't comment on Sov, Jpn, or even German tactics - but with the US I lead with arty, follow up with inf, then bring in the AFVs. As a side note even a pinned German inf unit can be a real danger with PF.

Ballan · Post by **Ballan** » Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:58 pm

German armour was (open to argument) the best in WW2. Many U.S. tankers claimed many Tiger kills when they were in fact Mk 4 or other AFVs. Brits also became very reserved about engaging German tanks, one interview I remember concern an R.A.F commander telling Montgomery during the Normandy campaign the a pilot has shot down three ME-109s in one sortie, Monty was marked to have stated that if they had been Tigers he would have been a lot happier. In SPWAW terms crews have a big impact (rightly so) on tank capability. Whilst playing the Russian long campaigns I find the Russian tanks to be be very inaccurate, especially if they move that turn. As realism goes SPWAW has got it right, the creators certainly have done their homework. Just for interest, although everyone seems to know about Wittman, there were many more German tank aces, in one instance one crew in a Hetzer destroyed 60 Russian tanks within a 24 hour period against heavy odds. And although the Elephant is generally considered a failure by modern historians during Kursk, the AVERAGE loss rate was 15-1 in favor of the Elephant, hardly a failure by any standards.

jsaurman · Post by **jsaurman** » Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:13 pm

Look at the topic of this thread! There is your answer! You need to follow the tactics that real tanker used during real life, that is to be a pain in their butts, butt shots will kill any German tanks. Gang up on the AFV and use both leg units with bazookas and tanks to hit the tank in their weak armor. You can't really go head to head with any German armor if you are an American. The German will always win. Sad but true. Also try not to attack an AFV with another AFV at really close ranges (1-2 hex) as the armor angles seem to be messed up and there are too many ricochets.

JIM

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Tue Oct 24, 2000 10:43 pm

My limited experience has also taught me an identical lesson. It seems common sense that you would NEVER engage an enemy head on, when a flank or rear attack will accomplish much more, but this maxim runs doubly true against German armor. My Lord, I've had American Jumbo's, three at a time, trying to take on one *blinking* German Tank ( don't remember the type off hand, but it's in "Utah to the Rhine" Scenario One, you know the ones that come from the South in the flank? ), just to hear the whine of riccocheting ( I KNOW I didn't spell that right ) shots off that incredibly dense armor. The only way I've been able to deal with those *blinking* tanks is to flank, or outright rear-shot them. Anything else is suicide. And don't even THINK of sending in rifle infantry against them. Learned THAT lesson the hard way

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"A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. "<br>
-General George S. Patton

Malkuth · Post by **Malkuth** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 2:12 am

The ones that came from the south about 4 of them are Tiger tanks.

JNL · Post by **JNL** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:19 am

Actually - the tanks from the South were 4 PzK 4s (H models?) and 2 (maybe 4?) PzK 5s (Panthers).

Accurate representation of history don't you think?

During the war it was common for allied soldiers to identify most German AFVs as Tigers. Most direct fire arty was classified as 88s. I would imagine while you're on the ground getting shot at - the last thing you would think about doing is standing up and saying something like:
"Gee Sgt. I don't think those are Tigers. They don't have the distinctive bogey wheel arrangement of the Mark VI AFV class."
No - I would be attempting to dig a hole in the ground with my stomach as I prayed for someone to drop a bomb on the damn thing or blast it with arty. The last thing on my mind, I would assume, is correctly id'ing the big metal thing trying to kill me.

Speaks volumes for the immersion factor in the game.

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I've never been in combat.....but I've been married a couple of times.......Does that count?
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skukko · Post by **skukko** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 8:50 am

Marriage and couple of raging kids? -I'll count that to war sometimes ; )

Why this crying out'ta here? I've played that first scene of 'UtahtoRhein' as a USpara, and had no bigger problem with the panzers. Get a couple shot from your Machinegun so they'll get blind, sneak rear or side and throw bunch of pineapples on it. It get's atleast immo' and is easy to destroy later. Patience my people, patience.

btw. I'll play German, afterall they helped Finland against russia...

Originally posted by JNL:
Actually - the tanks from the South were 4 PzK 4s (H models?) and 2 (maybe 4?) PzK 5s (Panthers).
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I've never been in combat.....but I've been married a couple of times.......Does that count?
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The MSG · Post by **The MSG** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 10:06 am

My suggestion, if u are able to get airsupport, get a couple of Typhoon RP´s, theyll blow anything up!

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The MSG

Reg · Post by **Reg** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 10:07 am

Originally posted by JNL:
Actually - the tanks from the South were 4 PzK 4s (H models?) and 2 (maybe 4?) PzK 5s (Panthers).

Accurate representation of history don't you think?

During the war it was common for allied soldiers to identify most German AFVs as Tigers. Most direct fire arty was classified as 88s. I would imagine while you're on the ground getting shot at - the last thing you would think about doing is standing up and saying something like:
"Gee Sgt. I don't think those are Tigers. They don't have the distinctive bogey wheel arrangement of the Mark VI AFV class."
No - I would be attempting to dig a hole in the ground with my stomach as I prayed for someone to drop a bomb on the damn thing or blast it with arty. The last thing on my mind, I would assume, is correctly id'ing the big metal thing trying to kill me.

Speaks volumes for the immersion factor in the game.

****************************************
I've never been in combat.....but I've been married a couple of times.......Does that count?
****************************************

I was reading a WWII newsgroup a while back and someone posted a US Army combat identification flow chart. I wish I had saved a copy of it as it was very good, but it went something like this:

Q1. Does it have a short gun barrel?
Yes: Go to Question 2.
No: It's a Tiger.

Q2 Is it a medium size vehicle?
Yes: Go to Question 2.
No: It's a Tiger.

Q3. Is it a turretless vehicle?
Yes: Go to Question 4.
No: It's a Tiger.

Q4 Is it.......
.
.
.
.
Q10 Does it have have German markings?
Yes: It's a Tiger.
No: You must have been mistaken, its a Tiger.

Sorry it's an incomplete quotation but you get the idea. All a bit tongue in cheek but with a grain of truth......

Reg

Iron Cross · Post by **Iron Cross** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 7:35 pm

Outstanding Quote!!!!
I actually laughed out loud reading this. I have read dozens of U.S. after-action reports about U.S. tank crews and mech infantry mis-identifying German armor. I am not surprised about the paranoia that the Tiger I and II caused though. With some of the finest armor and the 88mm L/71, those tanks could kill you in a heart-beat!! Also, the experience factor of many of the German tank crews more than made up for U.S./Soviet numerical superiority. I know that I would not want to be a U.S. M4 or Soviet T-34, watching my rounds at 500 meters go "whang" off the armor and watch that monster turret turning my way, knowing that all I did was piss him off!! I have found that when fighting any armor, button them up with artillery, strip his supporting infantry and kill him by close assault of flank/rear shots.

Iron Cross
Wenn Alles Bruders Es Schweigen

DoubleDeuce · Post by **DoubleDeuce** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:52 pm

Regarding the topic of this thread. While playing the "Utah to the Rhine" Campaign, my platoon of M4a1 and 2 Sherman Flails had no problem taking out all the PZ-IV's, Panthers and STUG-III's they encountered. Sometimes it took several shots and assistance from the para's 57mm ATGs but it worked. I find if you can hose the vehicles with MG fire and button them up, sevaral shots form an ATG or tank (even the little 75 on the M4a1) can take out most any german tank especially if you can get someone on their flank to add a round or 2 to the volley. I have even used early model T-34's to do this but since they seem pretty inaccurate, especially if moved, and take even more shots.As mentioned in several of the earlier posts here "Hit them in flank!"

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"Double Deuce on the Loose"

DoubleDeuce · Post by **DoubleDeuce** » Wed Oct 25, 2000 11:52 pm

Regarding the topic of this thread. While playing the "Utah to the Rhine" Campaign, my platoon of M4a1 and 2 Sherman Flails had no problem taking out all the PZ-IV's, Panthers and STUG-III's they encountered. Sometimes it took several shots and assistance from the para's 57mm ATGs but it worked. I find if you can hose the vehicles with MG fire and button them up, sevaral shots form an ATG or tank (even the little 75 on the M4a1) can take out most any german tank especially if you can get someone on their flank to add a round or 2 to the volley. I have even used early model T-34's to do this but since they seem pretty inaccurate, especially if moved, and take even more shots.As mentioned in several of the earlier posts here "Hit them in flank!"

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"Double Deuce on the Loose"

BA Evans · Post by **BA Evans** » Thu Oct 26, 2000 12:21 am

Double Duece = Double Post

Ha Ha