Italy Conquest Bug?

[Harrybanana]

I'm not sure if this is a bug or not. As the Allies I have commenced the conquest of Italy. First Sicily, then Sardinia and now mainland Italy. What I have noticed is that upon capturing a City or Town there is no immediate displayed drop in it's level. In other words I capture a town with, for example, an 8 level and it stays at 8 for the rest of my turn. But then the next turn it drops to level 3. It will then remain at level 3 turn after turn. The only exceptions to this are Palermo and Naples (so far) which go to level 5. Even Rome will not progress beyond level 3. Meanwhile captured ports get an immediate level of 5. This means that upon capturing a port by invasion I could immediately transport in other units. Is this WAD?

[Hubert Cater]

I believe this is working as designed as the resource supply levels are not recalculated until the end of your turn, and your current supply levels are calculated at the beginning of your own turn, so even though you capture an 8 town, it does not boost your supply as there is no supply recalcuation for your units until you end the turn.

Palermo and Naples are Primary and Secondary supply sources which account for them providing higher supply, and ports by default have a minimum of 5 supply.

[sPzAbt653]

I have seen the same thing and agree that it seems to be ok.

[Harrybanana]

Thank you for the response Bill. Is there a reason why captured Italian Cities cap at 3 supply level while all others can go as high as 5 or more. You say Palermo and Naples can go as high as 5 because they are primary and secondary supply sources. But as far as I am aware every town and city on the map (except apparently Italy) will increase to a 5 level once captured whether they are a primary or secondary supply source or not. Also, is not Rome a primary supply source? If so, why is it capped at 3 for the Allies after they capture it? So I'm just wondering why the special rule for Italy.

[Hubert Cater]

Do you happen to have a saved turn where I can take a closer look? If it is PBEM++ then a ChallengeID will suffice.

support@furysoftware.com

Thanks,
Hubert

[Harrybanana]

Hubert, Firstly I apologize for calling you Bill; the Challenge ID is 88297.

When you say ports have a minimum supply level of 5 I don't believe that is entirely correct. Ports can certainly be bombed and bombarded below level 5 and my experience is that most ports that I capture from the enemy will start with a supply level below 5 and then build up to 5 over the next few turns. But in Italy (or at least this game) all the ports I have captured automatically have a 5 supply level.Finally, when I have captured towns and Cities in other locations the supply level of the captured location is immediately changed. For example, I just captured a small town in Africa in one of my games and the supply level changed in my turn to a 2. So I know next turn that it will be a 3. This helps me plan my supply for next turn. But in Italy this does not happen, it just stays at 6 or 8 or whatever it was before I captured it. I know that it will drop to a 3 next turn so no big deal. Again I'm just wondering why the difference in Italy from everywhere else.

[Hubert Cater]

No problem at all as I've been called worse at least once I'm sure [;)]

For minimum supply level of 5 I just meant that in terms of an occupied level for ports, or a cut off port from a direct connection to a Capital and so on. Whereas cities and other resources could top out at 3 in similar situations. Outside of this, of course ports can be bombed to a lower level or initially start at a lower level from initial occupation but they should at least eventually be able to reach that 5 supply level as mentioned above.

For your turn in question, I had to take a look and then confer with Bill and it looks as though Axis Italy must have lost Rome, therefore its capital moved to Venice. It then surrendered via Operation Axis and its remaining territory switched to German control.

In the meantime, the Allied held territory doesn't benefit from any Key Resources as Italy has a surrendered status.

So this all has a plausible narrative behind it. Does that then sound about right for what happened in your particular game?

[Harrybanana]

Yes, that is what happened. Italy moved its capital to Venice after I captured Rome and then during the Axis turn the Germans took over. But does this mean I don't ever get the Plunder for an Italian surrender and never get the benefit of key resources? Seems a bit harsh to me. Is this WAD, or was it just an odd occurrence in my case?

In any event, I still don't fully understand. As the Axis conquers Russia or the Allies conquers Libya towns and ports will be captured. At the time of capture the town or port will generally "take damage" and have it's supply level reduced, usually to a level of 2 or 3. Then over the next few turns the supply level would increase by 1 point per turn until it reaches level 5.

But long before I captured Rome and Italy surrendered this was not happening in Italy. Instead all the ports that I captured in Sicily and Sardinia immediately had a supply level of 5. This was to my benefit as it meant I could invade with just one unit, capture the port and then transport in several more units. This is what (to my surprise) I was able to do with the port near Rome. But at the same time all the towns and cities I captured (except Palermo and Naples) remained at supply level 3. At least they did until this last turn when some of them increased (after several turns) to level 4. So I just want to know if this part of it is WAD and, if so, why Italy is different from other areas (like Russia and Libya)

[Hubert Cater]

You will eventually receive plunder once Italy fully surrenders, i.e. from capturing the new Capital at Venice, and overtime your resources that you currently occupy should move back up to at least strength 5.

In any event, I still don't fully understand. As the Axis conquers Russia or the Allies conquers Libya towns and ports will be captured. At the time of capture the town or port will generally "take damage" and have it's supply level reduced, usually to a level of 2 or 3. Then over the next few turns the supply level would increase by 1 point per turn until it reaches level 5.

This will initially happen in Italy as well when you first perform your landings and capturing of towns, cities and ports as there is a 'Scorched Earth' setting in place for Italian ports and cities whereby they will be instantly reduced once you capture them. 40-80% damage for Ports, and 30-70% damage for Cities. So if let's say the Port at Palermo was at 10 strength and it dropped to 5 when you captured it, then this is within the expected percentages.

Having Italian towns stuck at 3 is likely if they are cutoff from other supply sources such as Naples, Palermo and Rome which can happen as you are making your way through Italy as it is quite narrow and large areas can be cut off from supply as soon as a single but critical rail line is cut etc.

[Hubert Cater]

I've looked into this further and there is one bug for when Italy moves its Capital to Venice in that the Primary and Secondary supply sources of Rome, Palermo and Naples are lost and the Allies no longer gain the additional supply benefit of having those locations. I've fixed this on my end for the next update.

[Harrybanana]

Thanks for the quick response Hubert. You guys are the best.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

You will eventually receive plunder once Italy fully surrenders, i.e. from capturing the new Capital at Venice, and overtime your resources that you currently occupy should move back up to at least strength 5.

After months of hard battle I finally captured Venice; only to be informed that I have "Liberated Italy." I did not receive any plunder. So I think this is a bug.

You were correct about the resources moving back to strength 5, it just took longer than I thought it would.

[BillRunacre]

Actually, Hubert misspoke as Italy had been taken over (i.e. surrendered to) the Germans and therefore your advance to Venice is to liberate Italy from German control, so it's right that there is no plunder.

The good news is that now with Italy liberated its resources should start to rise to their maximum strengths.

[Harrybanana]

With respect, I would much rather have the plunder. Now that I have conquered all of Italy I don't need the extra supply and it will take an awful lot of turns before the additional MPPs from increased production equals the lost plunder. And to make it worse these production MPPs go to Italy and not the UK.

This is my first time as the Allies conquering Italy; does this mean that the Allies never gain any plunder from this conquest? If not, than under what circumstances will they get plunder?

[Vichyssoise]

Forgive me if I don't understand some basic game mechanics (total newbie here), but why should the Allies get the benefit of any plunder following Italy's liberation/conquest?
To me plunder basically means stealing a country's assets (financial, industrial, etc.). Something that would be counterproductive to what the Allies (the good guys) ultimately want: a peaceful Europe.

I'd like to know the answer to you last question as well.

[Harrybanana]

My understanding of "plunder" is that it doesn't mean primarily stealing a country's financial and industrial wealth, but rather seizing their military assets (tanks, aircraft, vehicles, guns, etc.) and converting them to your own use. Rightly or wrongly the Allies do get plunder for conquering other areas (Algeria. Iraq, etc).

Historically the Italians negotiated a surrender on, I believe, more generous terms than either Germany or Japan (whose surrender was unconditional). But in the game that option is not provided. In other words, Italy will not, as it did historically, surrender after the fall of North Africa and Sicily. Rather it will keep fighting until at least Rome is captured. What I would like to see is an Allied DE which allows them to accept an Italian surrender if it is 1943 or later, Italian National Morale is below 50%, all of North Africa is in Allied hands, and the Allies control every hex in either Sicily or Sardinia. If they accept Italian surrender than Italy is out of the war, but the Allies get no plunder. If they do not accept Italian surrender than Italy continues to fight, but when it does surrender the Allies get plunder.

In any event, I am still not sure what happened in my game and await an explanation. I think what happened is that Italy did not surrender after I captured Rome, but rather moved it's capital to Venice. That is why I didn't get any plunder. It then surrendered at the end of the Axis turn and Germany took it over. But I don't know why I didn't get the plunder when it surrendered even if it was on the German turn. Or maybe the Allies never get plunder for Italy.

[Taxman66]

In a vs. AI game, I had Italy surrender without taking Rome. Rome was occupied by a german unit. I had taken all of North Africa, Sicily, Sardinia, Southern Italy (say up to the ankle), and middle Italy north of Rome. Italy surrendered and all the Germans between my forces were suddenly cut off and out of supply.

[Hubert Cater]

Bill can confirm, but I suspect that you were able to capture Rome before some of the special events that kick in to handle Italian surrender and the German occupation of Northern Italy and Rome. Typically Italy would have surrendered in game due to 0 National Morale and then those events kick in. However you captured Rome prior to this and the capital moved to Venice, and then the special events kicked in.

This explains why the Italian capital moved to Venice, and once the special events kick in, Italy doesn't actually surrender, so there is no plunder for the Allies, and what happens is it switches sides to the Allies and is then occupied by Germany. So in this case you are in a 'Liberation' situation for Italy and thus no plunder.

If I understand the setup correctly, you'll never receive plunder from Italy as it doesn't actually surrender to you at any point in technical game terms under these circumstances. Again, the whole setup is this way to best simulate (with the current game engine tools at our disposal) what happened in Italy historically once the Allies invaded the boot and the Germans seized control of Rome and northern Italy etc.

[Harrybanana]

Well I tried the "Historical" approach and it blew up in my face. I conquered all of North Africa, Sicily and Sardinia and sunk most of the Italian fleet. But Italian National Morale was still at about 40% or so I think. I ventured into the Toe of Italy, but my supply situation was terrible. The Axis player is very good and he kept destroying whatever units I moved into the Toe with a Heavy tank unit. Landing at Rome was simply the easiest alternative. It worked, but no surrender and no plunder.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

My understanding of "plunder" is that it doesn't mean primarily stealing a country's financial and industrial wealth, but rather seizing their military assets (tanks, aircraft, vehicles, guns, etc.) and converting them to your own use. Rightly or wrongly the Allies do get plunder for conquering other areas (Algeria. Iraq, etc).

Historically the Italians negotiated a surrender on, I believe, more generous terms than either Germany or Japan (whose surrender was unconditional). But in the game that option is not provided. In other words, Italy will not, as it did historically, surrender after the fall of North Africa and Sicily. Rather it will keep fighting until at least Rome is captured. What I would like to see is an Allied DE which allows them to accept an Italian surrender if it is 1943 or later, Italian National Morale is below 50%, all of North Africa is in Allied hands, and the Allies control every hex in either Sicily or Sardinia. If they accept Italian surrender than Italy is out of the war, but the Allies get no plunder. If they do not accept Italian surrender than Italy continues to fight, but when it does surrender the Allies get plunder.

In any event, I am still not sure what happened in my game and await an explanation. I think what happened is that Italy did not surrender after I captured Rome, but rather moved it's capital to Venice. That is why I didn't get any plunder. It then surrendered at the end of the Axis turn and Germany took it over. But I don't know why I didn't get the plunder when it surrendered even if it was on the German turn. Or maybe the Allies never get plunder for Italy.

Hi Harrybanana

The reason the Allies don't get any plunder is because when the trigger condition is met, Italy is surrendering via a script to Germany (Germany gets no plunder for this). This only happens if the Germans have some units in Italy, i.e. are in a position to carry out Operation Axis like they did in real life.

Effectively the Germans will get their hands on all Italian territory not yet in Allied hands, so the country is divided and once the Allies have liberated Italy they can start to build and deploy Italian units on their side.

It is possible to get Italy to surrender without taking Rome, e.g. by landing in southern mainland Italy and capturing Naples. I'd recommend trying that next time, against an already weakened Italy.

Bill