The Brit 18th ID

[John 3rd]

Just read a 'what if' in World War II magazine. Wanted to get people's opinions.

Two Queries:
1. The British 18th ID was supposed to arrive in EARLY December instead of later. What would having a full strength Infantry Division sitting in Singers do for the defense? Is it useless or might it truly affect the game?

2. Second--What if the Indomitable had not hit the reef? Having it, along with four more Brit DDs, might be mighty useful.

Comments?

YES--I am seriously thinking about this for the Mods...

[Kitakami]

Hmm... interesting thoughts.

If the British 18th were to begin the war in Singapore, there are two things I see:

1. Fortress Palembang would be very difficult or impossible to achieve.
2. The Mersing Gambit would be much harder to pull off.

As for the Indomitable being in theater at the beginning of the war, I guess things would depend on her location, but it would give more options to the Allied player, and more things to worry about to the Japanese

[John 3rd]

It would be at Singers either as part of Force Z (1 CV, 1 BB, 2 BC, and 8 DD) or separated as the CV and 4 DDs.

If the 18th is present at the base, wouldn't Fortress Palembang be even MORE possible?

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
It would be at Singers either as part of Force Z (1 CV, 1 BB, 2 BC, and 8 DD) or separated as the CV and 4 DDs.

If the 18th is present at the base, wouldn't Fortress Palembang be even MORE possible?

That Brit CV would provide valuable Nell/Betty protection. Not proof against a CarDiv, but still useful. Japan would have to devote more resources to get things done in Malaya/Northern Borneo/Sumatra.

As for Fortress Palembang, I don't think there is enough shipping in Singapore to move the division, unless the ships that transported it there were still around. Whether they were or not, it would definitely make for an interesting scenario, especially if both Indian Inf Divs in Malaya could be reformed. Those three would make the peninsula a tough nut to crack.

On the other hand, if the 18th surrenders in Singapore, rebuilding it would be out of the question, I guess. Being able to ship it to Palembang along other units (air support, AAA, engineers, field arty) would be nightmarish for a Japanese player.

[Skyros]

I would think the whole set up of Malaya would be affected. The existence of the 18th would have allowed the indian divisions to be pushed further forward possibly reinforcing Kota Bahru and Alor Star. Might have made the Japanese early thrusts tougher to succeed.

[JeffroK]

18 Div wasnt headed to Singapore but was trained and equipped for the Middle East, it wasnt until after the japanese attacks that it was diverted to Singapore.

Indomitable would have added little to Force Z, maybe its best use would have been as a torpedo target and absorbed some of the torps launched against PoW & Repulse. japan would have known it was in theatre and provided more resources to sink it.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

18 Div wasnt headed to Singapore but was trained and equipped for the Middle East, it wasnt until after the japanese attacks that it was diverted to Singapore.

Indomitable would have added little to Force Z, maybe its best use would have been as a torpedo target and absorbed some of the torps launched against PoW & Repulse. japan would have known it was in theatre and provided more resources to sink it.

Good notes.

[John 3rd]

Other ideas/comments?

[DOCUP]

18th ID. My thoughts. Don't move it leave it in a convoy. Gives allied player flexibility. If he/she wants to do a fortress Palemburg, they can or they can put it somewhere else. Another reason to keep it in the convoy. Allied players are getting better at defending Singers. Japanese players are on a tight schedule, but you know that.

Indomitable. There was a thread awhile back that said there was no way for her to make it by Dec 7, even without her grounding. I could be wrong. I like the idea of having a CV in the area with some DDs.

[John 3rd]

OK. Here are my thoughts:

1. Moving in the 18th would, probably, be too much and not realistic due to their real life timetable.

2. In the spirit of the Allies 'sensing' the danger of the Japanese build-up, we reflect the changes in the CenPac back towards Singapore. IRL there are two Convoys on the west side of India carrying a pair of Indian Brigades. How about we bring one to Singapore and have it unloaded BUT the ships are still present. We'll say that they--literally--just arrived. The other advances to Ceylon for deployment as the player sees fit.

3. With that in mind, we move Indomitable's TF from present position Bombay to Ceylon where it can link-up with Hermes. It isn't much but the Allied player would then have a small strike force available. By placing them here, they can influence events pretty quickly but NOT be a sacrificial pawn on Day ONE.

4. We've already allowed for extra 1st Line Fighters to be deployed (Hurricanes), perhaps we add some more to the pool allowing the Allied player the opportunity to keep the Hurricane Squadron fully formed OR changeover a Brewster Squadron to Hurricanes. Be a good choice to put on the player.

What do you think?

[Kitakami]

John,

I actually like that line of thinking. It is a response, albeit a measured one, to the pre-war events in the Pacific. The additional Hurricanes would also be a welcome addition.

[ny59giants]

"IF" you are going to place an Indian brigade in theater, I would have the TF one day south of Singapore (about 6 hexes or so). Thus, you have to rush her in during that single naval movement phase. Force Allies to devote fighters to prevent Nells from Saigon from getting to it. Divert it to Palembang. Pull back to Java. If still at sea, it gives the Allied player a decision from the very beginning. Knowing its there, will the Japanese players be more aggressive with the CVLs at CRB? Choices and more choices. [8D]

[John 3rd]

I shifted everything detailed above except I unloaded the TF at Singers with the 48th Gurkha there, 20 more Hurricanes in the pool(presumably in boxes), and the TF (led by a CL) heading north at Port Swettenheim Sp?).

Michael's idea is even better. LIKE it. Need to go to church and will seriously examine the thought at that point. We could make it just south of of the tip off Sumatra heading for Singers.

Other ideas or thoughts of these?

[ny59giants]

Sounds like your going to church to think about the Indian brigade TF. [:D]

[cardas]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Force Allies to devote fighters to prevent Nells from Saigon from getting to it.

I wouldn't recommend putting it in a situation where you are at a risk of losing such a large infantry force outright if you are playing with historical first turn: on. That seems pretty cruel to me.

[JeffroK]

Within the realms of what was possible.
Leave 18 Div as is, its one of the few LCU that the AFB has to play with, he can send it to a variety of locations.

Add the 23rd Bde/8 Aus Div to Singapore or Johore (Take out the existing "Bird" Bns
Replace the "Bird" Bns with CMF Squads and remove a CMF Bde.

Add an Indian Bde to both 9 & 11 Indian Divs.
Improve the exp & morale to these Divs to counter the drain of trained troops (They were sent to the Mid East or India to provide cadre for expansion)
Add 2-3 forts to Malaya port bases, I believe that planned forts were not allowed as they would interfere with their peaceful lifestyle.
Improve the stats of the Allied leaders, some experienced leaders re crippled due to what happened with the troops on hand, not what they were capable of.

Replace the Buffalo (maybe send them to Australia and replace the Wirraway) and add Hurricane I Trops, they were still using these in the Mid East and even being generous cant see Malaya getting preference. (How about Airacobra I, the RAF had rejected them by this point for Western Europe!)

Force Z was on the way to Darwin, have it half way and make the JFB panic about where it will turn up.

[John 3rd]

Those are interesting. Does anyone have more thoughts on these ideas? I like a couple of them a lot.

Michael?

Kitakami??

Others???

[ny59giants]

My concern is these tweaks lead to more tweaks. When do they end? If they don’t end, then you need more slots for all these minor tweaks.

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Those are interesting. Does anyone have more thoughts on these ideas? I like a couple of them a lot.

Michael?

Kitakami??

Others???

I actually like JeffroK's ideas. Now, as to which should be implemented, that is the Mod team's decision. But they all have their appeal.

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
My concern is these tweaks lead to more tweaks. When do they end? If they don’t end, then you need more slots for all these minor tweaks.

True, but also an evolving Mod keeps its freshness, and thus the players' interest. Now, the point about the slots is important. There comes a point in which there are no more available.

[DOCUP]

Response to jeff’s Post.

Bring in an Indian brigade and have one of the Australian Bdes moving to Darwin. The Australians wanted there forces released to defend Australia proper and the Timor region of NEI.

The P39s could be sent to Oz or make the wirrways fighter bombers