This or WiTE/ WiTW

[chee006]

I am trying to decide whcih would be the better wargame to start with. I don't mind a deep learning curve as long as the game is as realistic as it can be.

Can you list the main features/differences between these tittles?

Thanks!

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: chee006

I am trying to decide whcih would be the better wargame to start with. I don't mind a deep learning curve as long as the game is as realistic as it can be.

Can you list the main features/differences between these tittles?

Thanks!

If you like the 'Operational Art Of War', then go for TOAW IV. The system is very flexible (see the Tutorial 'XX series) If you like long strategic campaigns with productions and a spiffing good air-combat-system, incl. strategic bombing, go for WiTW (The air combat system alone is a game of it's own!) or WitE. just my 2p.

Klink, Oberst

[Lobster]

Grigsby titles are on sale right now. If you wait to buy them later it will cost you dearly $$$$.

[gerardo]

I would add that with TOAW you can also play modern scenarios

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: gerardo

I would add that with TOAW you can also play modern scenarios

I forgot about that... true, part of the flexibility the system offers.

Klink, Oberst

[Olorin]

I played WitE and found it vastly inferior to TOAW's equivalent scenario "Drang nach Osten". My main criteria are OOB and map accuracy, as well as overall feel. The accompanying Word file that comes with Drang nach Osten is worth the game price alone, imho.

As for WitW, its main difference from WitE is the expanded air war. I can't comment on its worth compared to equivalent TOAW scenarios.

[jacktimes2]

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Grigsby titles are on sale right now. If you wait to buy them later it will cost you dearly $$$$.

For this reason, I would snag WitW first. I'm currently having more fun playing TOAW IV, but have enjoyed WitW for nearly two years now and highly recommend it. The air war is lots of fun. Of course you're going to want to pick up TOAW IV at some point. [:D]
I own all three, and honestly can't remember the last time I played WitE, but maybe it's just me.

Edit: I forgot to mention, one of the reasons I still play WitW and not WitE are the improvements to the supply system. My nightmares of HQ buildups have finally faded, and I'm glad those got axed for WitE2.

[alty59]

ORIGINAL: Olorin

I played WitE and found it vastly inferior to TOAW's equivalent scenario "Drang nach Osten". My main criteria are OOB and map accuracy, as well as overall feel. The accompanying Word file that comes with Drang nach Osten is worth the game price alone, imho.

And you haven't seen the 105 pages that comes from The Great War 2.0...or may be you have^^

[spinecruncher]

the Op is in a TOAW forum and will therefore get that bias. WITE(W) have something that TOAW does not: historical flavor in the leadership element. There is something indelibly satisfying in going through your corp groups and sacking/assigning commanders, with their profile pics and stats. Plus the graphics are an iteration of the sepcific campaign whereas TOAW has a one-size fits all system of graphics and no leadership. I also think the OOB system in WITE is far superior. I cannot make heads or tails of the OOB system in TOAW, but in WITE(w) OOB is clear and concise.

[Lobster]

Pretty pictures does not a war game make. I have WitE. Played it a couple of times and to my dismay it was so beer and pretzels I put it away and regret having paid such a large sum for such arcade game system. Some of it is very good. But some of it is very bad. The good parts make it an okay game. But the bad parts totally ruin it. I like some effort towards realism but despite the fact there is some of that the unrealistic movement system ruined the game for me.

Whether or not a war game is good or bad is a matter of opinion. Like I said in an earlier post, Grigsby games are on sale for real cheap. Get them now so when you do get them any regrets will be minimal. And if you do like them then you made a great buy. [;)]

[spinecruncher]

I am sorry, but how is wite beer and pretsyl and TOAW is not?

[quertice]

I think that an half-week time scale is a little excessive for an operational (battalion-regiment-division) level scale, it's just a nearly acceptable compromise not to have too long games... but let alone the week turn of WITE... a too long time, too much aberration because of the IGO/UGO system, and even though without a round system as toaw has; the scale is the real problem of WITE (and WITW) IMHO.

WITE was my first ground warfare wargame (earlier I have played war in the pacific for many years), now after have discovered TOAW I think I won't come back to WITE, now I'm in love with day turn scenarios

[Olorin]

ORIGINAL: quertice

I think that an half-week time scale is a little excessive for an operational (battalion-regiment-division) level scale, it's just a nearly acceptable compromise not to have too long games... but let alone the week turn of WITE... a too long time, too much aberration because of the IGO/UGO system, and even though without a round system as toaw has; the scale is the real problem of WITE (and WITW) IMHO.

I totally agree. Weekly turns, divisional level, 10 miles per hex just doesn't cut it for me.
It has this arcade feel that Lobster wrote about. It has its high points, like the leadership element that spinecruncher mentioned.

Now, WitW is another story, I don't think any TOAW scenario is able to match that game, it's just too strategic which is outside of of TOAW's scope. Plus the air system. I'd pay money for that game.

[Devast8or]

I have all three and each and every one of them offers something unique. WITE is the monster struggle in the east, very consuming but can feel like and arcade game which doesn't have to be wrong depending on how much time and effort you want to put in.

WITW is as has been said impressive. Especially the Air and Supply module, the game is however much more of a grind compared to the ebb and flow of the WiTE.
TOAW is very flexible, covers a lot and some of the scenarios could stand as a game on their own.

WiTW and WiTe I would say are more immersive since the OOB is outstadning with leaders and their portraits as well as unit insignia in WiTW.

If you want flexibility go for TOAW, if you are specifically into WWII and western front then go for WiTW.

If I could wish for something it would be a supply system in TOAW that resembles the one in WiTW.
I would also include leaders and more graphic options like leader pictures and equipment pictures, I'm sure the TOAW community would quickly create mods covering the whole database,
Similar air module as in WiTW would also be nice but maybe not so detailed. I would be satisfied if you could set up areas where you wish to enable CAPs and CS as well as assign escorts.

The last thing I would like to have in TOAW from WiTe/WitW is the ability to re-assign units between the formations. Let's say you want to move your Tank brigades to another section of the front but you wish to keep the current formation in place without suffering supply penalties.

[etsadler]

This is the first time I have ever seen WiTE called "beer and pretzels" and/or "arcade". [X(]

I play a lot of WitP(AE), WiF and MWif, and the old AH game The Longest Day. Have also played Europa, but don't currently have a spare basketball court to set it up. I have never played TOAW, but I have been reading a number of AARs as I have been pondering a purchase. From what I see in the AARs TOAW deserves the b&p and arcade labels more than WiTE. As has been noted, no good OOB, no leaders, no production options, etc. Yes, I understand it is Operational, not Strategic, but for me those items are important to game enjoyment. Another factor that I find vital is a good supply function. Few games model this well, and it seems to me (from the AARs) that TOAW is no better than any other. Supply just happens or doesn't happen and there seem to be few levers at the players control to change that. Again, yes, Operational. But can you really hang your hat on operational if the scope of a scenario is the war in Russia, or D-Day? Surely blurs into Strategic at some point.

YMMV

[Oberst_Klink]

Rick

hope ya's not snowed in down in Virginny... I love/play WitP AE, WitE (PBEM against loki100 was just smashing!) and of course TOAW, but also WinSPWW2. All games do best what they're supposed to reflect/simulate. As for TOAW, I am (I think?!) one of the most fervent advocates of the operational richness the game system offers, e.g. the combined arms concept for units up to let's say Rgt.level. As for the OOBs, TO&Es, that really depends on the designer an or the available sources. It's a bloody task, so to speak, to get proper information for let's say the period of between Stalingrad and Kursk, still... I managed to pull them out (with the help of many lads here).

See screenshot for an example (BIG thanks to Telumar who did the research for me!)

Klink, Oberst

[spinecruncher]

In any case, for the western Campaign of '40, I highly highly recommend the DC series Warsaw to Paris and even the Barbarossa and or Case Blue title.. The developer has done an outstanding job, and the Wardaw to Paris is IMHO the best iteration of any game for that time period. WITW is for '43 and after. but I would still prefer DC for the latter period. I do not know, there are just so many great titles and games it has become a problem for me. I like so much of what is out there in Matrix right now, including some older titles -- it is har for me to settle on one. But I will say that WITP is too much of a grind for me unless one is playing the GC scenario. Who wants to have to wait one hour for the AIT to makes its daily move? I mean that is crazy, plus it is not in windows mode so when the AI is moving, your computer cannot do anything else. There is nothing I can for example when my wife walks in and I want her to think I am working. I have to restart the entire computer and lose that move.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: spinecruncher

I mean that is crazy, plus it is not in windows mode so when the AI is moving, your computer cannot do anything else. There is nothing I can for example when my wife walks in and I want her to think I am working. I have to restart the entire computer and lose that move.

[:D]