Spain and Turkey...and Greece?

[tom730_slith]

Given the support received from Germany & Italy during the Spanish Civil War many believed that Spain would join the Axis.
I like the option in MWIF for bringing Spain into the Axis fold, but given the terrible state of the economy in Franco's Spain at the time it is pretty clear he only was interested in maximum gain for minimum effort by his country - much like Mussolini. So if either Euro-Axis partner took Gibraltar but CW was strong in North Africa it seems to me Franco might have still waited to see how things developed before joining the "Dark Side," especially if the Axis suffered any setbacks.
I'd like to see additional ways to bring in Spain. For example, if the Axis has taken Egypt and conquered Spain, maybe a roll for Spain's entrance into the Axis? There could be a variety of options including 1) full Axis membership, 2) Axis membership but Spanish ground units limited to former French colonies and Portugal, or 3) Axis membership but Spanish land units limited to Spain, Portugal and Gibraltar.
An option I've been using in solitaire games is following the conquest of France allowing Germany to DOW Spain but no Allied country allies with Spain, so Spain is automatically conquered. This simulates a strategy by Franco of allowing the Germans to traverse Spain to kick the British out of Gibraltar without risking his own army.

With Turkey there was some hope in the German camp that their WW1 ally would join them, but the Turks were not willing to join either side and possibly take another beating. Here again, the MWIF option is a good one for Turkey jining in the Axis fun, but they'd also be more likely to join if GB was locked out of the Mediterranean, and more so even if the Axis controlled Iraq and Persia. here again it would make sense to allow an "entry roll" for Turkey once the Med is closed to the Allies with a bonus to the roll for Iraq and Persia being Axis.

Regarding Greece, while it was the birthplace of Democracy the country didn't really enjoy that system prior to WW2. The right-wing dictator, Mataxas, might have been willing to join the Axis if 1) the British lost power and influence in the Mediterranean (chased out of Egypt and/or lost Gibraltar) or in the event of a successful Sea Lion! If there were a roll for Greek adherence to the Axis it could be "in play" once Bulgaria joined and get "bonuses" for the fall of Suez and/or Gibraltar. The addition of all those CPs would be a huge plus to the Axis. There could be the possibility of limitations of various sorts (like the ones with Spain) with possible limits to land forces such as 1) Only traverse countries bordering the Mediterranean or 2) No cooperation with Turkish units of any kind. If Mussolini had not invaded and if the CW had been thrown out of the Med it seems to me that the Axis option would have been a good one for the Greeks.

Thoughts?

[davidachamberlain]

Those won't happen unless Days of Decision gets added. I don't expect that at this point.

You might want to consider looking into the board game from ADG.

Dave

[paulderynck]

Interesting work around for the optional Spain idea. Could do the same for Greece and Turkey in Solitaire by having the Allies DoW them - except for the US entry impact. [&:]

But then one could WiFzen US isolationists convincing the hawks that the British Empire is circling the drain.

[juntoalmar]

if the Axis has taken Egypt and conquered Spain, maybe a roll for Spain's entrance into the Axis?

I don't understand this. If the Axis has conquered Spain, how can Spain enter as an Axis ally? After Spain is conquered, does it have any units left?

[Centuur]

There are a lot of things which would oppose an Axis alignment of Greece. Metaxas was totally against any Greek involvement outside of their own country (he took the same position as Franco did). Every time a war came, he supported neutrality at all costs. This happened during WWI, during the Greek-Turkish war in the 1920's and again before Italy declared war on Greece in 1940. The DoW by Greece during WW I happened after the King and Metaxas were exiled (which happened 3 times between 1916 and 1935)...

Also, the occupation of some of the Greek islands by Italy (around Rhodos) after WW I plays a role here. There is no way Greece would have joined the Axis, if Italy was in the war already. Italy and Greece were continually in disagreement over which islands belongs to who. Which was the reason Mussolini DoW'ed Greece.

Than there are the Turks, with which the Greek fought a war against in the 1920's. No way would Greece join the Axis, if the Turks were already fighting with the Axis and vice versa. The Greek history where the Turkish occupation before WW I is concerned is full of hate against the Turks. Uprisings by the Greeks against the Ottoman Empire happened a lot in the late 19th. century and that came with a lot of violence from both sides.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

if the Axis has taken Egypt and conquered Spain, maybe a roll for Spain's entrance into the Axis?

I don't understand this. If the Axis has conquered Spain, how can Spain enter as an Axis ally? After Spain is conquered, does it have any units left?

Well, the same as when Franco conquered Spain. Then he had at his disposal all the resources human or not, and for example recruited volunteers ... and (forced) "volunteers" as Franco did for the Blue Division (fighting in Leningrad et al).

It could have been a colaborationist government like Vichy but more compromised.

Don't know if it would have worked though. I would say all spanish would have worked very uncolaboratively with the Gernmans anytime or even fight them in the mountains, (like Maquis did with Franco but this time with a general undercover popular support) but on the other side there had been already 3 years of war in the same scenario (little Spain) don't know how much people could just take, they were starving, injured and dead...

[brian brian]

All the what if?s are a big part of why we play the game, interesting stuff.

There have been a lot of proposals re: Spain in World in Flames over the years. I think all of them are swimming against a strong, un-knowable tide of History - Hitler just wasn't all that interested. He told the world in the 1920s that he would attack the Soviet Union when he wrote Mein Kampf. Of course the game needs to allow us to explore the idea of other strategic options, but with regard to Spain certain parameters were fixed in place by decisions made during the Spanish Civil War. The Days of Decision game better allows the exploration of alternative outcomes there.

I think Greek relations with Bulgaria were rather fraught? Not sure they could end up on the same side. To really simulate all the possibilities just with Greece one might need to write a rule as long as the one for Hungary/Rumania/Bulgaria. Then add the volatile nature of Greek politics as Centuur mentioned and it sounds like a die roll would be warranted to really sort things out. The English language does now have the verb "Balkanize' for a reason.

I expect that within a couple years from now, Days of Decision will be given a final make-over to ensure compatibility with Collector's Edition, and hopefully at that point reach a level of integration where the DoD system could be used to manage minor country relations with the Axis and Allies - during the General War. That is my hope at least. I think there would be a lot of opportunity to make a more robust and dynamic political system based on the current situation on the board.

[warspite1]

The idea that two countries that hated each other couldn't possibly be on the same side is not borne out by history. One needs only to look at Romania and Hungary - both of whom would have rather been fighting each other than the Soviet Union - to see that mutual hatred was not necessarily an impediment. Indeed the two countries did actually come to blows in the USSR at one point. So whether Turkey and Greece could find themselves both members of the Axis (putting to one side the reasons why this didn't happen) would depend on a great many factors coming together just as they did for Hungary and Romania. They don't have to like each other - its about what they get out of it.

[tom730_slith]

Sorry! I meant to say "has conquered France" not "Spain" - my chemo brain at work I'm afraid! BTW, I'd especially love to hear responses from players in Spain! One Spanish player mentioned he has used a house rule where Germany has to pay 15 BPs to activate Spain, so I'd love to get feedback from members that have read the most current writings on war-time Spain!

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

if the Axis has taken Egypt and conquered Spain, maybe a roll for Spain's entrance into the Axis?

I don't understand this. If the Axis has conquered Spain, how can Spain enter as an Axis ally? After Spain is conquered, does it have any units left?

[tom730_slith]

This is what I have done! As a balancing factor I have sometimes had the Axis DOW on Mexico or Brazil. Another option is to "control" the dice so there is no detriment to US entry.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: tom730

Sorry! I meant to say "has conquered France" not "Spain" - my chemo brain at work I'm afraid! BTW, I'd especially love to hear responses from players in Spain! One Spanish player mentioned he has used a house rule where Germany has to pay 15 BPs to activate Spain, so I'd love to get feedback from members that have read the most current writings on war-time Spain!

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

if the Axis has taken Egypt and conquered Spain, maybe a roll for Spain's entrance into the Axis?

I don't understand this. If the Axis has conquered Spain, how can Spain enter as an Axis ally? After Spain is conquered, does it have any units left?

warspite1

This has been discussed recently on this forum but I can't find it. This is not just about BP. If Spain join the Axis, then there needs to be three penalties; a massive (and I mean massive) BP one for Germany, a large hit guaranteed for US Entry and Vichy France overseas territories joining the Allies.

[tom730_slith]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: tom730

Sorry! I meant to say "has conquered France" not "Spain" - my chemo brain at work I'm afraid! BTW, I'd especially love to hear responses from players in Spain! One Spanish player mentioned he has used a house rule where Germany has to pay 15 BPs to activate Spain, so I'd love to get feedback from members that have read the most current writings on war-time Spain!

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar




I don't understand this. If the Axis has conquered Spain, how can Spain enter as an Axis ally? After Spain is conquered, does it have any units left?

warspite1

This has been discussed recently on this forum but I can't find it. This is not just about BP. If Spain join the Axis, then there needs to be three penalties; a massive (and I mean massive) BP one for Germany, a large hit guaranteed for US Entry and Vichy France overseas territories joining the Allies.

Based on the demands made by Franco I tried the following - 1) Germany (and/or Italy) MUST attempt to occupy the Canary Islands with at least a 4 point Corps, 2) Germany MUST pay 15 BPs, 3) Germany MUST attempt to Construct or Rebuild ALL Spanish units. This would reflect Franco's desire to keep control of the Canary Islands as well as his demands that Germany invest in his battered country. For Germany it is a real challenge to have to complete construction of weak Spanish Battleships when much better German ones are available - as one example.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: tom730

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: tom730

Sorry! I meant to say "has conquered France" not "Spain" - my chemo brain at work I'm afraid! BTW, I'd especially love to hear responses from players in Spain! One Spanish player mentioned he has used a house rule where Germany has to pay 15 BPs to activate Spain, so I'd love to get feedback from members that have read the most current writings on war-time Spain!

warspite1

This has been discussed recently on this forum but I can't find it. This is not just about BP. If Spain join the Axis, then there needs to be three penalties; a massive (and I mean massive) BP one for Germany, a large hit guaranteed for US Entry and Vichy France overseas territories joining the Allies.

Based on the demands made by Franco I tried the following - 1) Germany (and/or Italy) MUST attempt to occupy the Canary Islands with at least a 4 point Corps, 2) Germany MUST pay 15 BPs, 3) Germany MUST attempt to Construct or Rebuild ALL Spanish units. This would reflect Franco's desire to keep control of the Canary Islands as well as his demands that Germany invest in his battered country. For Germany it is a real challenge to have to complete construction of weak Spanish Battleships when much better German ones are available - as one example.

warspite1

Well its your house rule so so long as you're happy with it then that is what counts [:)]. To my mind it ignores the political reality that three into two (Italy, Spain, Vichy) don't go so personally I wouldn't want to play with such an option. Obviously World In Flames is about what-ifs so I have no objection to new rules to align minors, but this didn't happen historically for good reasons and those, in my opinion, need to be taken into account in any alignment rule.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: tom730

Sorry! I meant to say "has conquered France" not "Spain" - my chemo brain at work I'm afraid! BTW, I'd especially love to hear responses from players in Spain! One Spanish player mentioned he has used a house rule where Germany has to pay 15 BPs to activate Spain, so I'd love to get feedback from members that have read the most current writings on war-time Spain!

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

if the Axis has taken Egypt and conquered Spain, maybe a roll for Spain's entrance into the Axis?

I don't understand this. If the Axis has conquered Spain, how can Spain enter as an Axis ally? After Spain is conquered, does it have any units left?

It was me, I was told it was an optional, and I just checked with the friend who knows more about rules in the group and he says it was an optional form one annual. Edit: ¿POLIF?

The rule was:

- You need to have "Vichyed" France,
- take Gibraltar
- and then you can pay 2 Chits (=30 BP) IIRW, and cede Gibraltar to Spain.

Then Spanish allies and the Med is a nazi-fascist lake.

[Zecke]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: tom730

Sorry! I meant to say "has conquered France" not "Spain" - my chemo brain at work I'm afraid! BTW, I'd especially love to hear responses from players in Spain! One Spanish player mentioned he has used a house rule where Germany has to pay 15 BPs to activate Spain, so I'd love to get feedback from members that have read the most current writings on war-time Spain!

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar




I don't understand this. If the Axis has conquered Spain, how can Spain enter as an Axis ally? After Spain is conquered, does it have any units left?

It was me, I was told it was an optional, and I just checked with the friend who knows more about rules in the group and he says it was an optional form one annual. Edit: ¿POLIF?

The rule was:

- You need to have "Vichyed" France,
- take Gibraltar
- and then you can pay 2 Chits (=30 BP) IIRW, and cede Gibraltar to Spain.

Then Spanish allies and the Med is a nazi-fascist lake.

jose Ignacio; eso¡¡..que achante; a la buchaca¡ la pasta

La regla es lo que hay.

[Joseignacio]

que apoquine! (make him pay for it!!!), jjajj

Even in the economic side it compensates economically, Spain was already giving one resource to GE after Vichy but when you align it you start to receive 3 more each turn plus you have 4 more factories. Just this should be enough to compensate, depending on when the expenditure is, and how much the spanish factories and resources are enenemy-free.

But then you get like 10-12 land units of a quality similar to France's, plus some planes and ships.

Economically it's a bargain as well.

[Zecke]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

que apoquine! (make him pay for it!!!), jjajj

Even in the economic side it compensates economically, Spain was already giving one resource to GE after Vichy but when you align it you start to receive 3 more each turn plus you have 4 more factories. Just this should be enough to compensate, depending on when the expenditure is, and how much the spanish factories and resources are enenemy-free.

But then you get like 10-12 land units of a quality similar to France's, plus some planes and ships.

Economically it's a bargain as well.

Okay; i SEE (the light) or the economic system; i wanted to buy evry day WIF; but to many games playing right now; especially this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTtd4vVfOTU

But am reading all here to buy it; thx for the lesson.

[Joseignacio]

[:)]

[tom730_slith]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: tom730

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

This has been discussed recently on this forum but I can't find it. This is not just about BP. If Spain join the Axis, then there needs to be three penalties; a massive (and I mean massive) BP one for Germany, a large hit guaranteed for US Entry and Vichy France overseas territories joining the Allies.

Based on the demands made by Franco I tried the following - 1) Germany (and/or Italy) MUST attempt to occupy the Canary Islands with at least a 4 point Corps, 2) Germany MUST pay 15 BPs, 3) Germany MUST attempt to Construct or Rebuild ALL Spanish units. This would reflect Franco's desire to keep control of the Canary Islands as well as his demands that Germany invest in his battered country. For Germany it is a real challenge to have to complete construction of weak Spanish Battleships when much better German ones are available - as one example.

warspite1

Well its your house rule so so long as you're happy with it then that is what counts [:)]. To my mind it ignores the political reality that three into two (Italy, Spain, Vichy) don't go so personally I wouldn't want to play with such an option. Obviously World In Flames is about what-ifs so I have no objection to new rules to align minors, but this didn't happen historically for good reasons and those, in my opinion, need to be taken into account in any alignment rule.

I understand the problem with "three into two" - especially when both Spain and Italy wanted a piece of French colonial possessions! This is why in my scenario France must be conquered, not "Vichy'ed." While it is certainly true that Vichy battled the CW on occasion (following the attacks on French bases as well as Syria) actually getting Vichy to DOW GB would have proven a challenge. Having the French navy join the Axis would have been a huge addition but since they fought the Brits numerous times without declaring war it's hard to imagine how that could have come to pass, short of a British DOW on Vichy!
So my thinking is Spain was a potential ally given their ideology as well as their debt to Italy and Germany from the Civil War. Given enough practical support PLUS the expectation of GB losing its control of the Med, Spain would be the logical addition to the Axis.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: tom730

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: tom730





Based on the demands made by Franco I tried the following - 1) Germany (and/or Italy) MUST attempt to occupy the Canary Islands with at least a 4 point Corps, 2) Germany MUST pay 15 BPs, 3) Germany MUST attempt to Construct or Rebuild ALL Spanish units. This would reflect Franco's desire to keep control of the Canary Islands as well as his demands that Germany invest in his battered country. For Germany it is a real challenge to have to complete construction of weak Spanish Battleships when much better German ones are available - as one example.

warspite1

Well its your house rule so so long as you're happy with it then that is what counts [:)]. To my mind it ignores the political reality that three into two (Italy, Spain, Vichy) don't go so personally I wouldn't want to play with such an option. Obviously World In Flames is about what-ifs so I have no objection to new rules to align minors, but this didn't happen historically for good reasons and those, in my opinion, need to be taken into account in any alignment rule.

I understand the problem with "three into two" - especially when both Spain and Italy wanted a piece of French colonial possessions! This is why in my scenario France must be conquered, not "Vichy'ed." While it is certainly true that Vichy battled the CW on occasion (following the attacks on French bases as well as Syria) actually getting Vichy to DOW GB would have proven a challenge. Having the French navy join the Axis would have been a huge addition but since they fought the Brits numerous times without declaring war it's hard to imagine how that could have come to pass, short of a British DOW on Vichy!
So my thinking is Spain was a potential ally given their ideology as well as their debt to Italy and Germany from the Civil War. Given enough practical support PLUS the expectation of GB losing its control of the Med, Spain would be the logical addition to the Axis.

warspite1

Fair enough, although personally I would have thought if France is not 'Vichyed', i.e. they continue the fight from their North African Empire, then there is even less chance for Spain joining the war.

Given the state of his country after the civil war, Franco was not about to cheese off the Americans (and British) for no good reason. After Vichy, the French Empire is effectively out of the game. If there is no Petain and no Vichy, France - albeit a terribly weakened France - is still around and fighting alongside the UK and the Commonwealth. There are no side shows like Dakar, Operations Menace and Exporter and the Italian position in Libya is now in danger from two sides.

Any territorial gains that Franco wanted from a Vichy scenario i.e. French Morocco, are not now available without a fight. The conditions are thus very much less 'favourable' to Franco than they were under a Vichy scenario - and in real life of course Franco wasn't tempted by that.

Ironically, such a turn of events may have persuaded Hitler to pursue a Mediterranean strategy (although I am not convinced by that because of the call of Lebensraum) but who knows?

EDIT: If one is really keen to see Spain capable of being aligned in the game then I think current ADG treatment is reasonable (although does not go far enough imo to reflect likely reality).

The pre-requisite here is that Germany and/or Italy have done the hardwork and taken Gibraltar (and thus furthering the chances of the CW coming to terms - and so making a decision for war more palatable for Franco). But I still think that ADG should have added a German BP penalty (the risk of starvation of the Spanish people has not gone away) and Germany should be made to give French Morocco to the Spanish as part of the alignment deal too (I can't imagine Gibraltar falling without possession of North Africa unless Gib is left defenceless).

But that is just my £0.02 GBP.